Nissan Leaf

[roblab]

Leaf's new model to have ONLY 100 mi range

According to a blurb from Bidness, quoting Inside EVs, Tesla outsold Leaf in May, 2400 to 2100. But more importantly, perhaps, the news is that Leaf is shutting down their present Leaf lines to prepare for the new updated Leaf which will have a roughly 25% increase in range, or a little over 100 real miles.

May Tops In EV Sales As Tesla Motors Inc’s (TSLA) Model S Beats Nissan Motor Co Ltd’s (NSANY) LEAF

I can't imagine how they plan to compete with the Model 3 at this rate. They can't even compete with the Model S, which costs double the Leaf!. Looks like Tesla will be the only real word for Electric Car by 2018.

 

[Canuck]

I can't imagine how they plan to compete with the Model 3 at this rate. They can't even compete with the Model S, which costs double the Leaf!. Looks like Tesla will be the only real word for Electric Car by 2018.

According to Musk, there is NO competition with other EV's. Tesla competition is ICE vehicles:

"Contending that Tesla’s biggest competitors are not the few other EV manufacturers but actually every gasoline-powered vehicle manufacturer, Musk concludes that Tesla alone is powerless to combat any impending carbon crisis supported by gasoline vehicles. Arguing that if Tesla’s primary goal is to "accelerate the advent of sustainable transport," yet it presents roadblocks in the form of patent disputes, then the company is acting in bad faith against its stated mission. He suggests that an open-source platform would benefit manufacturers and drivers alike by increasing the pace of EV development.
Elon Musk takes Tesla Motors into open-source territory

But even if there was a competition between Tesla and the Nissan Leaf, Tesla beating them in sales for one month, by 300 vehicles does not equate to "They can't even compete with the Model S, which costs double the Leaf!". Yes, they can compete, and they are doing so just fine. There's a ton of people, including me, who are very happy with their Leaf, and it serves a different purpose than my Tesla (because of it's low range) but it costs a fraction of what a Tesla costs. These vehicles serve different customers and different purposes, and it's great that we have the option to buy one or the other, or both. Not everyone can afford a Tesla. And the more EV's out there, the better. This is not about winning, except against ICE vehicles. The more sales the Nissan Leaf and Tesla can take away from ICE vehicles, the better.

I'm really looking forward to the new Leaf with longer range and I applaud Nissan for bringing us this car, just as I do Tesla.

 

[roblab]

According to Musk, there is NO competition with other EV's. Tesla competition is ICE vehicles:

"Contending that Tesla’s biggest competitors are not the few other EV manufacturers but actually every gasoline-powered vehicle manufacturer, Musk concludes that Tesla alone is powerless to combat any impending carbon crisis supported by gasoline vehicles. Arguing that if Tesla’s primary goal is to "accelerate the advent of sustainable transport," yet it presents roadblocks in the form of patent disputes, then the company is acting in bad faith against its stated mission. He suggests that an open-source platform would benefit manufacturers and drivers alike by increasing the pace of EV development.
Elon Musk takes Tesla Motors into open-source territory

But even if there was a competition between Tesla and the Nissan Leaf, Tesla beating them in sales for one month, by 300 vehicles does not equate to "They can't even compete with the Model S, which costs double the Leaf!". Yes, they can compete, and they are doing so just fine. There's a ton of people, including me, who are very happy with their Leaf, and it serves a different purpose than my Tesla (because of it's low range) but it costs a fraction of what a Tesla costs. These vehicles serve different customers and different purposes, and it's great that we have the option to buy one or the other, or both. Not everyone can afford a Tesla. And the more EV's out there, the better. This is not about winning, except against ICE vehicles. The more sales the Nissan Leaf and Tesla can take away from ICE vehicles, the better.

I'm really looking forward to the new Leaf with longer range and I applaud Nissan for bringing us this car, just as I do Tesla.

Thanks for a different viewpoint. I know many who don't feel they can afford a Tesla, simply based on its price compared to the Leaf, but when Teslas cost the same as a Leaf, what then? And when Tesla says they are going to have TWICE the range as the "New Improved Leaf", what then? I agree that Tesla is not competing with Leaf, but yes they are, for there are only going to be so many sales of electrics. If Tesla ends up getting a bigger percentage, that simply means that Tesla will continue to succeed. Maybe my stock will have a greater valuation.

And, when Teslas are priced where Leafs are, who is going to buy a Leaf and say, "Well, I use my Leaf differently"? When a Bolt has 200 mile range, and Leaf has decided, mistakenly in my opinion, to go with only a 25% increase in range, for the same price as a Model 3 (yeah, only rumor), what are Leaf owners going to say the reason is for why they bought a Leaf. It can't be price, then. "Sure, it's got less range, and it costs the same as a Tesla, but Leaf owners have a different metric". I think Nissan is really missing the boat, and all those who are championing the Leaf will change over.

Happily, though, it is like you say. Right NOW. In a very few years, Nissan will be offering less, and I am disappointed in them.

 

[stopcrazypp]

According to a blurb from Bidness, quoting Inside EVs, Tesla outsold Leaf in May, 2400 to 2100. But more importantly, perhaps, the news is that Leaf is shutting down their present Leaf lines to prepare for the new updated Leaf which will have a roughly 25% increase in range, or a little over 100 real miles.

May Tops In EV Sales As Tesla Motors Inc’s (TSLA) Model S Beats Nissan Motor Co Ltd’s (NSANY) LEAF

I can't imagine how they plan to compete with the Model 3 at this rate. They can't even compete with the Model S, which costs double the Leaf!. Looks like Tesla will be the only real word for Electric Car by 2018.

That model is supposedly just a current generation refresh for 2016. The official next generation Leaf (slated for 2017 I believe) will come with double the range of the current one according to the CEO.

 

[Zythryn]

Thanks for a different viewpoint. I know many who don't feel they can afford a Tesla, simply based on its price compared to the Leaf, but when Teslas cost the same as a Leaf, what then? And when Tesla says they are going to have TWICE the range as the "New Improved Leaf", what then? I agree that Tesla is not competing with Leaf, but yes they are, for there are only going to be so many sales of electrics. If Tesla ends up getting a bigger percentage, that simply means that Tesla will continue to succeed. Maybe my stock will have a greater valuation.

And, when Teslas are priced where Leafs are, who is going to buy a Leaf and say, "Well, I use my Leaf differently"? When a Bolt has 200 mile range, and Leaf has decided, mistakenly in my opinion, to go with only a 25% increase in range, for the same price as a Model 3 (yeah, only rumor), what are Leaf owners going to say the reason is for why they bought a Leaf. It can't be price, then. "Sure, it's got less range, and it costs the same as a Tesla, but Leaf owners have a different metric". I think Nissan is really missing the boat, and all those who are championing the Leaf will change over.

Happily, though, it is like you say. Right NOW. In a very few years, Nissan will be offering less, and I am disappointed in them.

Lots of assumptions there.
As already noted, the 25% increased range is not the second gen Leaf.
In addition, you have no idea what the Leaf (first or second gen) will cost in a few years when the Model 3 hits the road in numbers.

The Leaf is more efficient than the Model S, which is another factor for some.
Personally, Tesla has spoiled me and I can't see going for a Leaf again. But I would love to have the efficiency of it rather than my 85.

 

[roblab]

Lots of assumptions there.
As already noted, the 25% increased range is not the second gen Leaf.
In addition, you have no idea what the Leaf (first or second gen) will cost in a few years when the Model 3 hits the road in numbers.

The Leaf is more efficient than the Model S, which is another factor for some.
Personally, Tesla has spoiled me and I can't see going for a Leaf again. But I would love to have the efficiency of it rather than my 85.

I hope you are right. :smile:

 

[DuncanWatson]

Given that the Model 3 and the Leaf 2 are both unknowns I acknowledge the possibility that I will end up with a Leaf 2. When my Ford Focus Electric lease is up in February I will likely end up with a 2-3 year lease on a Leaf (possibly a 1.5 if out). It all depends.

 

[ggies07]

Given that the Model 3 and the Leaf 2 are both unknowns I acknowledge the possibility that I will end up with a Leaf 2. When my Ford Focus Electric lease is up in February I will likely end up with a 2-3 year lease on a Leaf (possibly a 1.5 if out). It all depends.

Same here, it's my back up if i can't get a Model 3. I really think the best thing for Nissan to do to help the sales of the LEAF Gen 2 is to partner with Tesla on the Supercharger network and build that into the car.

 

[gene]

Same here, it's my back up if i can't get a Model 3. I really think the best thing for Nissan to do to help the sales of the LEAF Gen 2 is to partner with Tesla on the Supercharger network and build that into the car.

Agreed!

 

[the dude]

 

[eloder]

There's a lot more things that go into someone buying a car, too.

If hard numbers were all that mattered, nobody would drive a BMW i3 over a Leaf. Every single ICE owner not focused on performance would own a Prius C.

My other car is a gas smart and I love it. $84 a month for the lease, 45 mpg in the summer time, and it can cut corners better than any other econo-car out there. You don't see every ICE commuter in a gas smart though despite it being one of the most economical cars out there, even more economical than a Leaf with reasonable annual mileage.

Little things like handling differences, styling, leasing v. financing differences, and individual needs will still cause people to buy "inferior" cars, even if you'd have a Model 3 against a Bolt or next-gen Leaf.

 

[Calvin.K]

I got the chance to take a test drive with a Nissan Leaf owner from Chicago that drove all the way up to Custer, Wisconsin for the 2015 MREA Energy Fair!

 

[spacexfan]

Hi Guys! I am thinking about selling my Prius due to Battery controller problems and other issues. I am thinking of switching to a used nissan leaf for 9000$. A great deal in my opinion. I am familiar with the bars indicating the battery health left and it looks not too bad. Since I do mostly local driving here in Florida, I think I should be just fine and borrow my friends cars when I need to go further. My question is, what do you guys say to a used nissan leaf? Worth the money? The fast charging port is of an old connector, right? So I should not count on future fast charging? And what is the AC impact on range? My impression is that it is not very significant (~20%) compared to heating in the cold weather in the north...

Like this one...
https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/detail/636709945/overview/

btw. I made a post earlier about why I would never buy an EV. This was not taken seriously and should only set some focus on the electricity price issue. My main motivation is the low gas price. Now it is a good time to switch for everyone. If we act short sighted now, we might be stuck in the oil age for way too long...

 

[jerry33]

Hi Guys! I am thinking about selling my Prius due to Battery controller problems and other issues. I am thinking of switching to a used nissan leaf for 9000$. A great deal in my opinion. I am familiar with the bars indicating the battery health left and it looks not too bad. Since I do mostly local driving here in Florida, I think I should be just fine and borrow my friends cars when I need to go further. My question is, what do you guys say to a used nissan leaf? Worth the money? The fast charging port is of an old connector, right? So I should not count on future fast charging? And what is the AC impact on range? My impression is that it is not very significant (~20%) compared to heating in the cold weather in the north...

On a used Leaf:

1. You need to make sure that the battery warranty is still good. If the previous owner took the "deal" the battery replacement warranty is gone.

2. Get Leaf Spy to measure the current health of the battery (the display isn't to be trusted in a used Leaf as the dealers can apparently mess with it)

Note the mynissan.com forum has a lot more information on the Leaf than TMC.

 

[eloder]

2011/2012 Leafs in the south are the most susceptible to the huge battery degradation issues you may have heard about. 2013-2014 is reportedly a little better, and 2015 is supposedly the best (but the Lizard battery chemistry in 2015 is not tested yet).

The Leaf is a fine vehicle (I'm leasing a 2015 myself), and one thing that you may consider is that even a used Leaf with a new 2015 chemistry battery (if needed in a few or several years) will still make it quite a low-cost and high-quality vehicle.

 

[cwerdna]

On a used Leaf:

1. You need to make sure that the battery warranty is still good. If the previous owner took the "deal" the battery replacement warranty is gone.

2. Get Leaf Spy to measure the current health of the battery (the display isn't to be trusted in a used Leaf as the dealers can apparently mess with it)

Note the mynissan.com forum has a lot more information on the Leaf than TMC.

Yep on the above. It's an '11 or '12, make sure this didn't happen: B0133 NO BATT CAPACITY WARRANTY - My Nissan Leaf Forum.

2011/2012 Leafs in the south are the most susceptible to the huge battery degradation issues you may have heard about. 2013-2014 is reportedly a little better, and 2015 is supposedly the best (but the Lizard battery chemistry in 2015 is not tested yet).

The Leaf is a fine vehicle (I'm leasing a 2015 myself), and one thing that you may consider is that even a used Leaf with a new 2015 chemistry battery (if needed in a few or several years) will still make it quite a low-cost and high-quality vehicle.

Well, Nissan tested the '15 "lizard battery" but never has released any info publicly on its degradation nor that of any previous Leaf batteries. But yes, '15 Leaf has that "lizard battery" (Update on Nissan LEAF Battery Replacement - My Nissan Leaf Forum).

It is unclear if '13 Leafs really are any better in terms of capacity loss due to heat and calendar (time).

Hi Guys! I am thinking about selling my Prius due to Battery controller problems and other issues. I am thinking of switching to a used nissan leaf for 9000$. A great deal in my opinion. I am familiar with the bars indicating the battery health left and it looks not too bad. Since I do mostly local driving here in Florida, I think I should be just fine and borrow my friends cars when I need to go further. My question is, what do you guys say to a used nissan leaf? Worth the money? The fast charging port is of an old connector, right? So I should not count on future fast charging? And what is the AC impact on range? My impression is that it is not very significant (~20%) compared to heating in the cold weather in the north...

Like this one...
https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/detail/636709945/overview/

By SF Bay Area standards, that's WAY too high for a 2011. I'm not even clear if that car has the CHAdeMO inlet.

'11 and '12 Leaf have lame 3.x kW on-board charger and slow power pig heater. And, that car is well beyond the 3 year/36K basic warranty. And, unless the battery was replaced, its accumulated a lot of calendar losses. It looks like it was a Florida car, so if it didn't have its battery replaced... it's had quite a bit of loss. However, if it's at 8 capacity bars or on the cusp of getting down to 8 and the previous person didn't opt out or get their battery replaced already, you could take advantage of Update on Battery Warranty Enhancement for 2011 2012 LEAF - My Nissan Leaf Forum.

I got a '13 Leaf SV w/premium package (Bose stereo and Around View Monitor (4 cameras)) w/under 24K miles for $9,325 + tax and license (was a Nor Cal car): Wholesale value of the 2013 Leaf @Auction-June '15 - Page 8 - My Nissan Leaf Forum. Bose stereo, AVM were unavailable on '11 and '12s, ditto for 6.x kW on-board charger, hybrid heater ('13+ SV and SL only) and more.

A bit more about that dealer's process re: picking them up at auction at Wholesale value of the 2013 Leaf @Auction-June '15 - Page 7 - My Nissan Leaf Forum. He'd sent me a list of 21 '13 Leaf SV the Friday before the Wednesday auction w/their VINs, colors, packages (if any) and mileage. I was interested in 2 of the cars (met my criteria).

Some more info about '13+ changes:
http://sfbayleafs.org/news/2013/01/2013-nissan-leaf-product-highlights/
http://sfbayleafs.org/commentary/2013/09/2013-vs-2011-nissan-leaf-whats-new-whats-gone-whats-changed/.

 

[spacexfan]

Thank you so much for all your answers! This is so helpful! I will definitely reconsider everything and look more closely at all the details. I was not very familiar so far with potential problems. Back in 2011 I test drove a Nissan leaf for the first time and was very impressed with the car. However the price tag of ~35k$ was way out of reach for me. Now that I need a new car I was so impressed that they sell one only ~4 years old and with ~40k miles for only ~25% of the new price. I thought that this was a great offer, especially since an electric car is build so simple mechanically that almost no expensive repairs are ever going to happen.

Thank you so much for the links to the mynissan.com forum too! I really appreciate that you guys took the time to help me.

 

[cwerdna]

Now that I need a new car I was so impressed that they sell one only ~4 years old and with ~40k miles for only ~25% of the new price. I thought that this was a great offer, especially since an electric car is build so simple mechanically that almost no expensive repairs are ever going to happen.

Thank you so much for the links to the mynissan.com forum too! I really appreciate that you guys took the time to help me.

Yes, do visit mynissanleaf.com.

As for "almost no expensive repairs are ever going to happen", the Leaf does generally seem reliable but there is always a small chance that some expensive subsystem could fail. And, if you want to replace the battery out of warranty, it is $5500 + installation. Battery replacements due to some sort of complete/catastrophic failure on the Leaf seem virtually unheard of. However, those in hot climates (e.g. Phoenix and Texas) suffered very large amounts of capacity loss in less than 21 months on their '11 Leafs: Lost Battery Capacity and Range / Autonomy, Page 2 - My Nissan Leaf Forum.

Nissan has made all sorts of statements in print and video that they didn't need battery cooling (unless it was a Dubai car) and expected average remaining capacity after 5 years or 10 years. Unfortunately, they were way off (at least w/'11 and '12 batteries, possibly all the way thru '14) for MANY climates. Probably only those w/mild climates (e.g Oregon and Seattle area) will actually do as well as or better than their claims.

Examples: ~0:58 mark of Nissan LEAF In-Depth | Battery Performance - YouTube (70 to 80% remaining capacity after 10 years...
Nissan LEAF: Battery Upgrades, Secondary Use Part Of The Plan

For those who plan to keep the LEAF longer, its battery pack is projected to last ten years. "After ten years you'd have 70 to 80 percent of capacity," said Perry. "So even then it's not like you'd use the battery up and it's no longer viable."

Nissan Suggests Leaf Battery-Capacity Loss Due To High Miles: Exclusive has a slightly different figure.

http://www.wired.com/2010/01/nissan-leaf-2/

Mark Perry, Nissan’s director of product planning for the United States, dismissed the importance of active thermal management.

“We don’t need thermal management for the U.S., but we are looking at the technology for Dubai and other locations like that…. We’ve gone on the record saying that the pack has a 70 to 80 percent capacity after 10 years,” he told Wired.com. Pressed on whether that is realistic for a passively cooled manganese oxide pack, Perry said yes.

“If it wasn’t our pack and it wasn’t our engineers and we weren’t working on it for 17 years … we wouldn’t make the statement if we weren’t confident in our ability to do so,” he said.

And Elon was right at least in part at Tesla CEO Rips on Nissan's Battery Technology, Says It's "Primitive" | PluginCars.com.

Musk believes that because Nissan's battery pack is passively air cooled instead of actively liquid cooled—like Tesla's battery packs—the LEAF's battery temperature will be “all over the place,” and result in “huge degradation.”

 

[spacexfan]

Yes, do visit mynissanleaf.com.

As for "almost no expensive repairs are ever going to happen", the Leaf does generally seem reliable but there is always a small chance that some expensive subsystem could fail. And, if you want to replace the battery out of warranty, it is $5500 + installation. Battery replacements due to some sort of complete/catastrophic failure on the Leaf seem virtually unheard of. However, those in hot climates (e.g. Phoenix and Texas) suffered very large amounts of capacity loss in less than 21 months on their '11 Leafs: Lost Battery Capacity and Range / Autonomy, Page 2 - My Nissan Leaf Forum.

Nissan has made all sorts of statements in print and video that they didn't need battery cooling (unless it was a Dubai car) and expected average remaining capacity after 5 years or 10 years. Unfortunately, they were way off (at least w/'11 and '12 batteries, possibly all the way thru '14) for MANY climates. Probably only those w/mild climates (e.g Oregon and Seattle area) will actually do as well as or better than their claims.

Examples: ~0:58 mark of Nissan LEAF In-Depth | Battery Performance - YouTube (70 to 80% remaining capacity after 10 years...
Nissan LEAF: Battery Upgrades, Secondary Use Part Of The Plan


Nissan Suggests Leaf Battery-Capacity Loss Due To High Miles: Exclusive has a slightly different figure.

http://www.wired.com/2010/01/nissan-leaf-2/

And Elon was right at least in part at Tesla CEO Rips on Nissan's Battery Technology, Says It's "Primitive" | PluginCars.com.

After I carefully examined everything, I decided that I will not buy a nissan leaf. I know that this might sound "stupid" but Elon's opinion on this passively cooled battery technology is the main reason. Here in Florida it can get really hot. I will wait for another car, maybe a ford ev, which are liquid cooled, but a lot more expensive. Than I thought it might be better to just get a used corolla and save the money for a Chevrolet bolt or Tesla model 3. I don't want to have a bad first ev experience. For me it is pure ICE or EV. I have enough of hybrids. I see my decision in a positive light. At least I can drive as far as I want now with the corolla. And it is a great ICE car but it gets 25mpg city, 30hwy... Oil age, here I am... stuck in the middle with you. :crying:

Thank you all TMC users for the help!!! If I can help you guys with anything, just PM me.

 

[dhanson865]

Elon was right, the Leaf battery pack is primitive.

Just use Nissan's mistake to your advantage.

The 2011/2012/2013 Nissan Leaf's are all heavily devalued due to the battery pack heat vulnerability issue. You can get one for a few thousand dollars in perfect condition. I got mine a few months ago for $8995 and you can beat that by several thousand now.

In TN/NC weather my car is losing ~6% SOH per year. Max range drops every time the pack goes over 90F to the point I can post a log of my capacity losses and figure out the rough temperature patterns based on those losses. An excerpt of the full logging is at Nissan Leaf - Page 10 - Fuel Economy, Hypermiling, EcoModding News and Forum - EcoModder.com

But if your commute is short enough you can't beat a sub $8000 car that goes on 2 cents a mile or less fuel/electricity cost and has all the luxury features of heated seats / heated steering wheel / remote AC / remote heat. Math on cost per mile at Nissan Leaf - Page 9 - Fuel Economy, Hypermiling, EcoModding News and Forum - EcoModder.com

If you are lucky enough to have free L2 chargers near work it's even cheaper. I'm just not willing to walk 1 mile each way twice a day to charge for free on L2 since I charge for free L1 part time at work with my evse (similar to the UMC but only good for 120v)

All in all, it's like getting a brand new car in terms of creature comforts for the price of a beater.