TMC is an independent, primarily volunteer organization that relies on ad revenue to cover its operating costs. Please consider whitelisting TMC on your ad blocker and becoming a Supporting Member. For more info: Support TMC

NYT article: Stalled on the EV Highway

Discussion in 'News' started by Jeeps17, Feb 8, 2013.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Jaff

    Jaff Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2010
    Messages:
    3,135
    Location:
    Grimsby, Canada
    #61 Jaff, Feb 8, 2013
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2013
    In defense of Kruggerand, I'm sure she was relating Canadian experiences i.e. Edmonton, Winterpeg, Ottawa et al....block heaters are a way of life for these places...

    - - - Updated - - -

    Well said...it is a little disingenuous to expect a full and convenient installation of Superchargers at this point in time...hell, we don't even have one Supercharger in Canada yet...

     
  2. dennis

    dennis P85D

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2012
    Messages:
    1,932
    Location:
    Silicon Valley CA
    You have precisely defined Tesla's problem of reaching past the EV early adopters to successfully sell to the mainstream market. Elon said he wants the Model S to be the best car, not the best EV. If you have to "plan ahead/have a contingency plan/be proactive" in order to own a Model S then by definition you are not in the mainstream market.
     
  3. Kaivball

    Kaivball Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2013
    Messages:
    670
    Location:
    Kalifornia
    But until people can drive an EV like an ICE it will remain a niche vehicle.

    People don't want to worry about this kind of stuff.
     
  4. cinergi

    cinergi Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2010
    Messages:
    2,173
    Location:
    MA
    I didn't read the article but I am noticing the topic of discussion here, and thought I'd chime in, mostly because I suspect it'll shock those of you who know me -- basically a Tesla fanatic, almost to the "Tesla can do no wrong" point. That's primarily me holding back on the negative stuff for various reasons.
    I do think there's a serious problem to solve here -- and it's not just Tesla's. Until supercharging is ubiquitous and you can find them without GPS hunting (but rather with signs on the highway) and they generally are all in working order (and if not, there's another one near by), we're in this period of time where understanding range and what impacts it is critically important.
    I understand for comparison and marketing reasons that Tesla says 300 miles of range or even 265 (mostly 300) -- but "no one" in their right mind should be doing that as a normal practice. You generally wouldn't drive your ICE to fumes (though if you did, it's a lot easier to recover). I cringe every time I hear the 300 mile pitch. And I feel dirty when I tell people 265 miles.
    The fact that the car now shows rated range in the speedometer area doesn't help. Bad call IMO.
    There's zero information to help you understand where your power is being consumed. There's zero information about the impact of cold on the car (when it starts affecting regen, how it affects available power, when the battery heat comes on, etc.)
    A general consumer is in the dark about their car. That must be fixed.
    That said, I understand why it's not fixed yet. From a priority perspective, that was lower, and it'll become much less important in a couple months and Tesla will have plenty of time to figure it out for next winter.

    Most of us grew up with ICE vehicles so we just know the ins and outs -- without a manual or special training. An EV is a relative unknown and handing them out without the right training or built-in functionality to let the driver know what they need to know is a problem.
     
  5. Kaivball

    Kaivball Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2013
    Messages:
    670
    Location:
    Kalifornia
    +1

    Yup
     
  6. Trnsl8r

    Trnsl8r S85 2012-2018, X90 since 2016, 3 since 2018

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2011
    Messages:
    1,724
    Location:
    San Jose, CA
    Hey, don't say that. I liked it, and will use it! Heck, I think we should coin "react proactively" like we did "frunk". :)
     
  7. ToddRLockwood

    ToddRLockwood Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2012
    Messages:
    1,304
    Location:
    Burlington, Vermont
    #67 ToddRLockwood, Feb 8, 2013
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2013
    I don't have my Model S yet, but it would appear that Tesla needs to modify its projected range algorithm to allow it to take outside temperature and current battery load into account.

    There also needs to be some reliable data on battery loss while leaving the car parked in cold temps, right down to -20F.

    IMO, Tesla should not have initiated the Washington-New York supercharger corridor without having more charger locations in place. It's fairly clear that the 150 mile spacing is too great when temps are below freezing.
     
  8. brianman

    brianman Burrito Founder

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2011
    Messages:
    16,924
    72% more obvious

    (Too soon? ;) )
     
  9. Trnsl8r

    Trnsl8r S85 2012-2018, X90 since 2016, 3 since 2018

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2011
    Messages:
    1,724
    Location:
    San Jose, CA
    One minor data point: I was in LA for three days, staying at two different hotels. When I asked for a place to plug in my electric car, even a regular outlet, one hotel receptionist bumbled that he had no idea if there were any outlets close to a parking spot (there wasn't), the other just gave me a deer-in-headlights stare.

    "Just plug it in" should be rephrased to "do your darndest to plug it in if you can"... at least for now.
     
  10. SFOTurtle

    SFOTurtle Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2013
    Messages:
    1,073
    Location:
    Los Altos, CA
    +1. Tesla should have had a DS check in on this reporter during the entire trip. The potential for adverse publicity from any hiccups on a trip like this is far greater than the minimal investment/cost to make sure this reporter's trip went as smoothly as possible.

     
  11. rolosrevenge

    rolosrevenge Dr. EVS

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2009
    Messages:
    1,864
    I grew up in Eastern Washington State. We had an old Ford pickup that would often require a push start from another car when we'd have cold snaps that would drop the temperature to only single digits in the day and about -10 at night. We'd push it with our suburban down the street. The suburban had a block heater that we would use during such weeks because it would be very hard to start as well. I specifically mentioned Calgary because when I went there I saw 110 V outlets in all of the large parking lots for block heaters. That's where I was coming from. Notice I didn't say that Tesla is at fault, but I was curious about whether or not there was any charging close to where he stayed the night. I think most Hotels should have a few J1772s. We all know that there needs to be an expanded infrastructure.
     
  12. SFOTurtle

    SFOTurtle Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2013
    Messages:
    1,073
    Location:
    Los Altos, CA
    Well said.

     
  13. Jeeps17

    Jeeps17 Cath Jockey in a P85

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2012
    Messages:
    991
    Location:
    Montreal, Canada
    Thank you!

    But given your username, I think you are more likely than most to enjoy / forgive / appreciate my sometimes creative use of the English language :smile:
     
  14. K Hall

    K Hall Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2013
    Messages:
    340
    Location:
    Kansas City
    He did not ask for a plug in at night. Root cause.
     
  15. Trnsl8r

    Trnsl8r S85 2012-2018, X90 since 2016, 3 since 2018

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2011
    Messages:
    1,724
    Location:
    San Jose, CA
  16. SFOTurtle

    SFOTurtle Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2013
    Messages:
    1,073
    Location:
    Los Altos, CA
    Did anyone notice that while the NYT reporter was trying to cut back on consumption and unsure of whether he could make it to Milford, he took "a short break in Manhattan." Huh? He doesn't say that he stopped at the Tesla dealer in Manhattan, where presumably he would have recharged. Something isn't right.
     
  17. apacheguy

    apacheguy S Sig #255

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2012
    Messages:
    4,956
    Location:
    So Cal
    Definitely agree on this point. I posted in another thread here about the Model S beta overview (YouTube video) and I was impressed by the energy app they featured. It actually showed the breakdown of energy consumption in the individual subsystems. I'm not sure why Tesla chose not to include these features in the production version. IMO it would clear up a lot of these issues as owners would understand where the power is actually going. Personally, it would help me a lot to have this information.
     
  18. EchoDelta

    EchoDelta Member

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2012
    Messages:
    902
    Location:
    Seattle, Planet Earth
    While I'm also a data freak, consumer behavior is not data-driven.
    If the car was wiser about telling the driver about range affected by weather conditions and advising to range-charge if you put in a destination in the GPS that is 150 mi+ away then some issues could be averted, and that's interaction design improvements tesla can do.
     
  19. cwerdna

    cwerdna Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2012
    Messages:
    2,064
    Location:
    SF Bay Area, CA
    Are you saying that they most already have them or that should install them? I'm guessing the latter as I doubt even 20% of US hotels have J1772.
    Thanks! Interesting. It'll be interesting to see hear if he used the wrong charge setting and whether that guy is right w/point #5.
    Agreed!
    Agreed! I don't follow this forum that closely and am much more active on MyNissanLeaf since I plan to buy/lease a Leaf. But yes, the range limitations and needing to plan ahead (MUCH less so w/larger battery capacity Teslas compared to a Leaf) is a huge deterrent to widespread EV adoption. And, CHAdeMO DC fast charging is not real ubiquitous and slower than Tesla's Superchargers.

    If gasoline and diesel suddenly become incredibly expensive and scarce, EVs will look a lot more interesting to American consumers...
     
  20. stopcrazypp

    stopcrazypp Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2007
    Messages:
    9,454
    #80 stopcrazypp, Feb 9, 2013
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2013
    That article made many of the points I wanted to make. There was lots of bad advice from the Tesla reps. The thing that popped up for me was the suggestion to sit there for 30 minutes with the heater on low to "condition" the battery when unplugged. That's horrible advice since if you drive the car the battery will naturally heat up, plus if you are not plugged in you are using valuable energy to heat up the cabin while stationary.

    The other thing that popped up is Tesla told the guy to leave the luncheonette after only an hour of charging, while the range estimate was 32 miles and the trip he had to make was 68 miles.

    Losing 65 miles overnight (indicated range, actually lost 46 miles of range with 44 miles left, see math below) is definitely an issue, but he could have still made the trip if Tesla didn't give so much bad advice. 46 miles is about 15kWh by the way and since the car was parked for about 11 hours (9:30pm to 8:30am next morning), that was a 1.36kW draw or about the same draw as a space heater.

    Math to calculate actual range in pack overnight:
    He used 25-19=6 miles doing conditioning, he used 11 miles to go to Norwich (which means arrival with 8 miles indicated), charged for an hour adding 24 miles (32mi after charging - 8mi arrival). He used 8.4kWh according to below article, which would have gotten him 21 miles of EPA range, so the numbers check out. Traveled 51 miles to Branford before the battery was completely dead. If you sum the numbers he used (6+11+51) and subtract the miles he added by charging (24) you get 44 miles of usage.

    http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/02/08/a-detour-on-the-road-to-an-electric-future/
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

  • About Us

    Formed in 2006, Tesla Motors Club (TMC) was the first independent online Tesla community. Today it remains the largest and most dynamic community of Tesla enthusiasts. Learn more.
  • Do you value your experience at TMC? Consider becoming a Supporting Member of Tesla Motors Club. As a thank you for your contribution, you'll get nearly no ads in the Community and Groups sections. Additional perks are available depending on the level of contribution. Please visit the Account Upgrades page for more details.


    SUPPORT TMC