OFFICIAL BUTTON WATCH

[mikes_fsd]

At least you're consistent!

Yes I am.

You are citing something you never see during the purchase process

"Full Self-Driving Capability" is an option at purchase time, this page provides the full definition for that option - Autopilot.
Just the same for Autopilot, this same page defines the features of base Autopilot as well.

I don't know about you, but when I spend a few grand for an option, I would like more than a handful of bullet points to describe what I am buying -- so you know, I research and it helps that the company that I am buying from actually has a page describing what I am buying in detail.

Again, you've created a narrative that you need to maintain your prejudice (or illusion), and this simple little page destroys your narrative.
I am sorry to have burst your little bubble, but it is time!

or... just keep digging!

 

[gearchruncher]

"Full Self-Driving Capability" is an option at purchase time, this page provides the full definition for that option - Autopilot.

Again, are you saying that is the only page that matters, and things Tesla or Elon says in other places are irrelevant?

Inconveniently, Tesla made this page in 2019: Autopilot and Full Self-Driving Capability That's the page that said "coming this year" in 2019 and 2020 for city streets driving. You know, a specific performance with a measurable date that they completely missed no matter what your definition of "city streets" is as even they agree it hasn't shipped yet per the current version of that page. So someone could very much have done a bunch of research and believed it would be here in 2019 based on data found directly on Tesla.com. Are you going to argue the language on the /autopilot page somehow clearly trumps specific dates given on the /support/autopilot page?

You can also buy FSD at any time with two clicks in the app. Not every FSD purchase occurs in conjunction with a vehicle purchase agreement from Tesla.

Nobody here needs to be arguing when Tesla will deliver L3 or L4 or what they promised around that to see that they are both making promises and not meeting them. They flat out said "coming this year" on their own website during 2019 and 2020. They are basic features on the way to any kind of full autonomy. Those features have not been delivered as of May 2021, and now Elon isn't really sure when they will be delivered, but it should be soon*.

 

[mikes_fsd]

Again, are you saying that is the only page that matters, and things Tesla or Elon says in other places are irrelevant?

Keep up, I said the order page with it's bullet points is complimentary to the full definition on Autopilot

Since Autopilot existed since the launch in 2016 I would guess that this is the page that would be the foundation of the functionality described.... and CONVENIENTLY Tesla keeps updating it (oh the horror, I know).

Inconveniently, Tesla made this page in 2019: Autopilot and Full Self-Driving Capability That's the page that said "coming this year" in 2019 and 2020 for city streets driving. You know, a specific performance with a measurable date that they completely missed no matter what your definition of "city streets" is as even they agree it hasn't shipped yet. So someone could very much have done a bunch of research and believed it would be here in 2019 based on data found directly on Tesla.com.

So, sue them for the failed dates, I wonder how long it would take for a reference Autopilot to come up.

You can also buy FSD at any time with two clicks in the app. Not every purchase is tied to a new vehicle purchase.

If you are satisfied with the bullet points for the price, sure go ahead and buy that... but don't go bitching that it is not L4+ in that case.

Can't have it both ways.

Tesla via Autopilot promised and promises L4+ for "Full Self-Driving Capability" without a concrete timeline... that is what I hold them to.

 

[gearchruncher]

Tesla via Autopilot promised and promises L4+ for "Full Self-Driving Capability" without a concrete timeline... that is what I hold them to.

So you aren't holding them to anything? You don't believe they owe anybody currently alive anything around FSD, ever, because it has no concrete timeline?

So, sue them for the failed dates, I wonder how long it would take fore Autopilot to come up.

In that case, how is that a legal contract? "In contract law, there must be consideration for the contract to be enforceable." - what consideration is there in the case where Tesla can always say they will deliver in the future? What did you get for your $2000-$10000 you spent? As nolo puts it:

"In order for consideration to provide a valid basis for a contract -- and remember that every valid contract must have consideration -- each party must make a change in their "position."

I think it's a lot less defensible position for Tesla to not deliver incremental features and tell people that they will eventually drop L4+ all at once at some undetermined date than it is for them to deliver incrementally. I don't think you seriously want to argue that Tesla has no requirement to perform in a measurable way- we're suddenly in "not a contract at all" territory. Being promised something in the future is not a sufficient change in position for a contract to be valid, and it's even been argued that suggesting the price will increase in the future so you should buy now is coercion.

Meanwhile, they did actually have a date, and they missed it, so that is much more likely enforceable than some vague "someday" statement. Vague "someday" statements without specific performance sound a lot more like being an investor than a customer, and do you really want the SEC involved with Elon / Tesla and FSD sales?

Also:

Each party to the contract is bound to perform promises according to the stipulated terms. In case of any controversy as to the meaning of a promise, the courts have usually decided that a person must perform it as the other party reasonably understood it to be. Thus, a preference for the rights of the one who is to receive the benefit of the promise is established.


Attempts to establish hard and fast rules about reasonable interpretations of promises are now discouraged. Although at one time a person would be held to the literal meaning of the contract provisions stating a promise, the requirement now is to perform the true meaning and intent of the contract, which may not correspond with the fine print.

I'm really not sure a court would agree that reasonable customers should have understood that they were owed absolutely nothing because of Tesla's contracts or language that absolve them of all their marketing, tweeting, and videos which included estimates of timeframes and depictions of functionality.

I'm sure rxlawdude will be here shortly to tell me how I'm wrong and playing lawyer without actually stating why.

 

[rxlawdude]

I'm sure rxlawdude will be here shortly to tell me how I'm wrong and playing lawyer without actually stating why.

Nope. There's a saying, res ipsa loquitur. Your messages speak for themselves.

 

[gearchruncher]

Got it. According to @mspisars and @rxlawdude, Tesla has no requirement to deliver anything. People with EAP paid $5K for FSD, but as part of that purchase Tesla does not have to deliver because of magic contracts that say "subject to validation and regulations" and that gets them out of everything forever.

@rxlawdude - If FSD has no specific defined performance, then why is it an issue for Tesla to remove the display of "FSD license" from a car in the hands of a 3rd party like you argued this morning? There are no damages in that case as the feature had no specific function or timeline promised to anyone. It's so weird to both agree that this is totally worth thousands of dollars so removing it is a violation of the first sale doctrine while also acknowledging that it doesn't actually exist today (so what are we removing?) and that it may never exist and the first purchaser totally knew that. You even called FSD "tangible property." How is a future promise for something, maybe nothing "tangible property"?

 

[israndy]

Oh, GAWD this is boring, and doesn't seem to be in line with the thread's title

 

[dckiwi]

Oh, GAWD this is boring, and doesn't seem to be in line with the thread's title

Gotta find *something* to talk about while we wait for The Button to (never) arrive.

 

[gearchruncher]

Oh, GAWD this is boring, and doesn't seem to be in line with the thread's title

https://twitter.com/x/status/1392430463436812288

TL;DR:
Some posters: "Cool, can't wait, they never had to give us anything so what a bonus!"
Other posters: "Here we go again, it's always 2 time increments away, what happened to the previous timeframe?"

 

[Cyberax]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1392430463436812288

TL;DR:
Some posters: "Cool, can't wait, they never had to give us anything so what a bonus!"
Other posters: "Here we go again, it's always 2 time increments away, what happened to the previous timeframe?"

Don't worry, the Christmas Holidays update is going to be

And if you behave yourself, it might even be this Christmas.

 

[qdeathstar]

A subscription platform for a feature that has not existed at the company before and has "zero technical risk", I've heard it all from you now.
I can count at least 10 major risks without ever even enabling the software feature on the car. But you keep on living in your phantasy land.

Can you tell me those risks?

 

[mikes_fsd]

Can you tell me those risks?

Lets start with the most basic one, that this forum has discussed in the past.

Tesla right now will remove FSD for cars returned from lease or traded in to Tesla.
But they do not have a clean/reliable system in place to ensure that that vehicle configuration is applied to the physical car before it goes out to auction.
There is a whole thread for that subject alone: FSD Not Transferring to new Owner Class Action

Now, extrapolate that to where you now have a monthly subscriptions, that you have no way to guarantee that the subscription status on your corporate ERP/fleet management software matches what is actually on the car!

This is just one example.

 

[Cheburashka]

Lets start with the most basic one, that this forum has discussed in the past.

Tesla right now will remove FSD for cars returned from lease or traded in to Tesla.
But they do not have a clean/reliable system in place to ensure that that vehicle configuration is applied to the physical car before it goes out to auction.
There is a whole thread for that subject alone: FSD Not Transferring to new Owner Class Action

Now, extrapolate that to where you now have a monthly subscriptions, that you have no way to guarantee that the subscription status on your corporate ERP/fleet management software matches what is actually on the car!

This is just one example.

How is it that Tesla is able to offer the connectivity package on a subscription without issue then?

The only technical risk here is their own incompetence.

 

[gearchruncher]

Now, extrapolate that to where you now have a monthly subscriptions, that you have no way to guarantee that the subscription status on your corporate ERP/fleet management software matches what is actually on the car!

How does Tesla handle premium connectivity then? This already exists and turns features on/off. I've stopped and started it multiple times with no issues. They have a whole section on the owner portal dedicated to "subscriptions" And as I pointed out, they already know how to do demos of FSD.

You're seriously saying that a company you trust to be a leader in autonomous vehicles can't figure out how to do a monthly subscription and there is "technical risk" in this?

 

[qdeathstar]

Lets start with the most basic one, that this forum has discussed in the past.

Tesla right now will remove FSD for cars returned from lease or traded in to Tesla.
But they do not have a clean/reliable system in place to ensure that that vehicle configuration is applied to the physical car before it goes out to auction.
There is a whole thread for that subject alone: FSD Not Transferring to new Owner Class Action

Now, extrapolate that to where you now have a monthly subscriptions, that you have no way to guarantee that the subscription status on your corporate ERP/fleet management software matches what is actually on the car!

This is just one example.

How is this a risk for Tesla? I think with a subscription system in place, removing fsd from cars would be even easier.

 

[mikes_fsd]

How is this a risk for Tesla? I think with a subscription system in place, removing fsd from cars would be even easier.

The only technical risk here is their own incompetence.

Maybe so, but systems like that carry A LOT of technical risk. Stuff, that you dismiss as their incompetence still requires design and implementation.

Sorry that it's not all rainbows and butterflies.

There are examples here of people trying to start premium subscription and being told it will be activated in 30 days. Their current subscription framework is not designed for the Netflix generation. Designing and standing up that platform carries a good amount of technical risk.

 

[mikes_fsd]

Can you tell me those risks?

The only technical risk here is their own incompetence.

Since both of you seem clueless on how software platforms work and what technical risk is, I will allow NASA to provide context with their definition of technical risk...

Technical Risk: This is the risk associated with the evolution of the design and the production of the system of interest affecting the level of performance necessary to meet the stakeholder expectations and technical requirements.

Under the section "Key Concepts in Risk Management" there are some other risks that you might learn about as well
src: nasa.gov/seh/6-4-technical-risk-management

 

[qdeathstar]

Ok, no. A company today can buy a subscription platform. Everything doesn’t need to be done in house.

 

[mikes_fsd]

Ok, no. A company today can buy a subscription platform. Everything doesn’t need to be done in house.

wow,
You are even more clueless than you've let on.

Even if there was an off-the-shelf solution, you would need to integrate it with your existing ERP (enterprise resource planning) & FM (fleet management) software.
These things are not some random apps that you install from your app store.

 

[EVNow]

The only technical risk here is their own incompetence.

Yes - its a learning curve for them. Its not a technical risk in the sense of FSD itself.

BTW, have you ever worked in the I.T. side of a company - even in tech companies ?