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Subscription wasn't in the 2016 or the 2019 description of FSD.
Are you one of the ones that claims Elon's tweets are not any kind of official communication from Tesla?
Because Elon has been tweeting about a subscription since 2020, so everyone that bought since then has been told it is coming and it could have been part of their purchase decision.

But you're missing the point- it's yet another case of where Elon says something absolute (literally "a sure thing") and it isn't true. He can't even get this right with something that requires zero technical risk and is only supposedly 4 weeks away. Given this history, being skeptical about anything he says about anything is a pretty reasonable position to start from, and indicates that the more important stuff like actually delivering any useful FSD features as promised are probably way far off as well despite his constant 2 month estimates.
 
Are you one of the ones that claims Elon's tweets are not any kind of official communication from Tesla?
Because Elon has been tweeting about a subscription since 2020, so everyone that bought since then has been told it is coming and it could have been part of their purchase decision.

But you're missing the point- it's yet another case of where Elon says something absolute (literally "a sure thing") and it isn't true. He can't even get this right with something that requires zero technical risk. Given this history, being skeptical about anything he says about anything is a pretty reasonable position to start from.

Exactly. I don't even care about the subscription since I got suckered into paying for FSD. The irony isn't lost here when they can't roll out a feature that is pretty straightforward like a subscription yet he keeps providing timelines on all the FSD stuff, every one of which has been inaccurate.
 
He can't even get this right with something that requires zero technical risk and is only supposedly 4 weeks away.
A subscription platform for a feature that has not existed at the company before and has "zero technical risk", I've heard it all from you now.
I can count at least 10 major risks without ever even enabling the software feature on the car. But you keep on living in your phantasy land.
 
Interesting how they are willing to risk that on what is already superhuman highway performance, and how on a safety critical system they are changing their message tweet to tweet. I'll set a reminder to see it next week ;)
Catskills. Again. "The food is terrible, and the portions are too small." (For those new to this discussion, this refers to two old ladies in the Catskills complaining about their meal.)

But you now acknowledge that NOA and current FSD functionality on highways is "superhuman." Yet you continually natter about FSD in the future, being substandard.

Your inconsistencies are, um, noted.
 
A subscription platform for a feature that has not existed at the company before and has "zero technical risk", I've heard it all from you now.
??? The FSD software option does exist today. It gives you summon, NoA, etc. Elon has always said they would have a FSD sub before they had any real FSD features- I always assumed that it would be identical to as if you had just paid $10K for FSD. This is a way to get summon without having to pay $10K, not a shortcut into the city streets beta. I mean, he's still promising the sub for next month but is saying city beta is farther out than that.

Tesla already has subscriptions (premium connectivity). Thus, they have the backend systems to do this. They have also offered time limited demos of FSD in the past, so they know how to turn it on and off. They also can remove FSD when they resell a car. They can also put FSD v8 on only specific beta cars.

It appears they have all the technology they need to enable "FSD" on a car based on a subscription instead of a one time purchase. This is a pure business decision for when they enable subscriptions to the identical FSD feature set that people currently have if they paid $10K.
 
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But you now acknowledge that NOA and current FSD functionality on highways is "superhuman."
I absolutely do not. I keep pointing out that ELON says it's superhuman. Which it clearly is not for anyone that has used it, so it's a way to take a dig at him. He's the inconsistent one- both telling us a system is superhuman, but then making sure we all know it requires constant attention whenever an accident occurs. Then saying that they need to make fundamental changes because radar has problems. Then saying it was only city streets getting vision because "production" was already good enough, then saying production is going vision only. Those inconsistencies are noted as well.

A L2 system with a human at the wheel that slightly outperforms not existing at all is not "superhuman" if you take the driver away. It tells you nothing about it's ability to operate a vehicle without that human present. Tesla keeps telling us we'll be able to use the car without intervention, but also tells us we must be highly alert at all times. There is zero data here they are anywhere near to a "Full Self Driving" system at all.

I know you are in love with your ripped off catskills joke, but again, it is not the insult you think it is. Yes, Tesla is completely failing to do ANYTHING- they are neither delivering quality nor quantity. The joke here is "this restaurant charged me up front and has completely failed to deliver me any food." I'd love it if Tesla chose a path- either absolutely crush it and deliver quality, functional features that actually do work "99.999999%" of the time but very slowly, or deliver huge amounts of features that are kind of half baked. Instead we get "we're going to re-write everything, don't worry it will be better this time and we're totally the leading experts at this"
 
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Ahh, that old trope...

It's not a trope it's a fact.

You've had it shown to you- with crayon and everything- multiple times.

FSD prior to ~March 2019 promised L4 or better as the final deliverable.

FSD sold past that never promised more than L2.

Mind you- I'm not sure how you got on THIS you-are-wrong-yet-again tangent when we were discussing the fact that what you keep calling "FSD beta" is actually an L2 ONLY feature (and only ever L2, per Tesla)- called "Navigate on city streets" internally by Tesla and they do so in the DMV correspondence as well.

Which is the ORIGINAL fact I stated that you wrongly said wasn't true.

It's like you keep moving the goalposts in a game that doesn't use goalposts.



Anyway, that feature (L2 driving on city streets) would complete the FULL promise to 3/19 and later buyers about what they're owed per the purchase promise.
(mind you it completes it 2 years late- as that feature was EXPLICITLY promised by end of 2019...then promised again by end of 2020- both promises DURING the purchase process).

it would NOT complete the L4 or better promise made to those who bought FSD earlier (though no specific delivery date was ever given for that one during the purchase process)
 
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It's not a trope it's a fact.
Wow, you must be off your meds.
Do show us how you were promised L4 out of the gate.


I showed you how you were not promised L4 out of the gate, that L4 (or higher) would require "extensive software validation" or "achieving reliability far in excess of human drivers as demonstrated by billions of miles of experience" in the newer version.

You've committed to digging, so dig further, faster, harder!

Both promise L4+ as final deliverable, that does not mean any single feature IS that final deliverable. And (just like a broken clock) at least you get that part right that "no specific delivery date was ever given"...
 
I absolutely do not. I keep pointing out that ELON says it's superhuman. Which it clearly is not for anyone that has used it, so it's a way to take a dig at him. He's the inconsistent one- both telling us a system is superhuman, but then making sure we all know it requires constant attention whenever an accident occurs. Then saying that they need to make fundamental changes because radar has problems. Then saying it was only city streets getting vision because "production" was already good enough, then saying production is going vision only. Those inconsistencies are noted as well.

A L2 system with a human at the wheel that slightly outperforms not existing at all is not "superhuman" if you take the driver away. It tells you nothing about it's ability to operate a vehicle without that human present. Tesla keeps telling us we'll be able to use the car without intervention, but also tells us we must be highly alert at all times. There is zero data here they are anywhere near to a "Full Self Driving" system at all.

I know you are in love with your ripped off catskills joke, but again, it is not the insult you think it is. Yes, Tesla is completely failing to do ANYTHING- they are neither delivering quality nor quantity. The joke here is "this restaurant charged me up front and has completely failed to deliver me any food." I'd love it if Tesla chose a path- either absolutely crush it and deliver quality, functional features that actually do work "99.999999%" of the time but very slowly, or deliver huge amounts of features that are kind of half baked. Instead we get "we're going to re-write everything, don't worry it will be better this time and we're totally the leading experts at this"
Use your words and put others' words in quotes, if that's what you meant. Your "superhuman" statement as written was crystal clear.

In any case, I don't want to have another pissing match with your reflexive gainsaying.
 
I showed you how you were not promised L4 out of the gate, that L4 (or higher) would require "extensive software validation" or "achieving reliability far in excess of human drivers as demonstrated by billions of miles of experience" in the newer version.
It appears your argument is that if you see an advertisement that says:
"This car goes 200 MPH*" and the asterisk says "if we can manage to make it go 200MPH" then they never actually advertised 200MPH?

You know what the issue is here. They clearly advertised L4. They just put a caveat on it that they actually need to make it work. You're treating that caveat like it invalidates the earlier promise. We're saying that they are making such slow progress on the caveat that they functionally have failed to deliver on the promise (particularly against the constant statements that they are under 2 years away). And of course the big issue here is that they *charged* for it. This would all be moot if they offered refunds or never pre-sold.
 
The final deliverable
2016 (introduction of FSD Capability feature) vs today:
1620846603627.png

and
1620846612429.png
 
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Wow, you must be off your meds.

Well, talking to yourself is a sure sign.

Do show us how you were promised L4 out of the gate.


"out of the gate"
and
"final deliverable"

are very different things.

Maybe increase your dosage?


Both promise L4+ as final deliverable

No, they do not both promise that as part of the purchase process.

pre 3-19 does.

post 3-19 never promised anything higher than L2.

You've been visually shown this with screen shots of the actual purchase process.

Maybe the drugs are effecting your memory too?



The final deliverable
2016 (introduction of FSD Capability feature) vs today:


Nope.

The page you're quoting there isn't shown during the purchase of the vehicle nor the selection of FSD as an option.

Go look at what you are promised DURING THE ACTUAL PURCHASE.

For Pre 3-19 it's L4 or better.

For post 3-19 it's L2.
 
No, they do not both promise that as part of the purchase process.

pre 3-19 does.

post 3-19 never promised anything higher than L2.
There is not need to memorize anything as the Internet has a way of memorizing for you!
The promises (that I screenshotted for you) are clear.

The only full definition of Full Self-Driving Capability on the Tesla site is at Autopilot
When you check the box to add "Full Self-Driving Capability" and they have a definition of that "Full Self-Driving Capability" on their site, I will use that definition.

Both 2016 and 2019 (to present) arrive at the same end functionality.
Both 2016 and 2019 (to present) say that the deliverable will be in features and will require supervision until validation and approval happens.

The newer wording is - arguably - clearer, but the older - 2016 - wording does not contradict the newer wording.

Check your meds.
 
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There is not need to memorize anything as the Internet has a way of memorizing for you!
The promises (that I screenshotted for you) are clear.

But neither is shown to you during purchase.

So neither is actually relevant.

Apparently you DO need to memorize something after all!


The only full definition of Full Self-Driving Capability on the Tesla site is at Autopilot
When you check the box to add "Full Self-Driving Capability" and they have a definition of that "Full Self-Driving Capability" on their site, I will use that definition.

That would be dumb- since they define what you are actually buying on the same page as the check box


Here, again, is what you ACTUALLY BUY during the process.

PRE March 2019:
fsdprice.jpg


Notice you are promised L4 or better as an eventual deliverable in the future DURING THE PURCHASE RIGHT THERE?


Now here's the later post 3-19 versions:

fsdv3.png


Those are pre and post actually rolling out the stop light control.

Notice both ONLY PROMISE LEVEL 2? and while they mention features might evolve they make NO PROMISE WHATSOEVER like the OLD sales page did about L4 or better self driving EVER being included in your purchase?


How are you not exhausted from being wrong so much?
 
Notice you are promised L4 or better DURING THE PURCHASE RIGHT THERE?
Pre-2019 description matches word for word what was on Autopilot page at the time.

And after 2019 Autopilot updated the definition to the latest that you see today.
Now here's the later post 3-19 versions:
Why keep and update a definition if you are overriding it with a simple bulleted list?
Because they are complimentary, Autopilot is the full detailed definition what is presented on the order page lists the features/elements that are detailed in the full definition.

The bulleted list on the order page is described in detail on the official Autopilot product page: Autopilot

This is not rocket science.


LMGTFY - Let Me Google That For You first result on all major search engines is to the Autopilot landing page... Autopilot not exactly hidden. Keep digging.
 
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Pre-2019 description matches word for word what was on Autopilot page at the time.

Why do you keep citing to something you don't see at all during your purchase?

The thing that would govern, legally, is what you are shown when you buy the item.

Which I just presented to you, and shows you're wrong.

For like the 12th time you've been shown it.


When you check that box, you are buying what is described on that page with the box and the price

Pre 3/19 that's L4 or better.

Post 3/19 it is not
 
[/QUOTE]
I keep citing the official definition of the feature that is available for purchase.

No, you explicitly are not

What you cite has no purchase button on the page and no price either.

You are citing something you never see during the purchase process

What you actually see during the purchase is the official definition of what you are purchasing

Which says you're wrong.

Again.

At least you're consistent!
 
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