Okay, speculators, what amperage charger will the 3 come with?

[Garlan Garner]

I don't understand why some people in this thread are trying to rationalize a reason for a 24 amp charger. There is no good reason for a weaker, slower charger! These cars need to be able to charge FAST!!! More! Bigger! Better! FASTER!!! 48 amps! 72! 80! MOAR!!!

In a few years, when EV chargers are much more commonplace, people will expect to be able to slam 30 or 40 miles into their battery while they are in the supermarket picking up a few things.

I want that now, and I won't even have my 3 until the end of the year or so!

It has been stated by Tesla themselves that Slower Charging is conducive to less degradation of the battery over the long haul. Now...I won't mind installing an 80amp outlet so long as I can limit the charge rate via the car itself.

 

[TexasEV]

It has been stated by Tesla themselves that Slower Charging is conducive to less degradation of the battery over the long haul. Now...I won't mind installing an 80amp outlet so long as I can limit the charge rate via the car itself.

No Tesla did not say that. Are you referring to the person who used CHAdeMO almost exclusively? That has nothing to do with AC charging rates. Tesla has never suggested that there is any difference whatsoever between 10kW and 20 kW charging, which is the difference between 40 and 80A, and has certainly not recommended charging less than 40A.

 

[Garlan Garner]

No Tesla did not say that. Are you referring to the person who used CHAdeMO almost exclusively? That has nothing to do with AC charging rates. Tesla has never suggested that there is any difference whatsoever between 10kW and 20 kW charging, which is the difference between 40 and 80A, and has certainly not recommended charging less than 40A.

Yes they did. In another discussion - Dis-charging rates have a similar affect on the batteries.

The premise is this: Faster Charging rates degrade the battery faster over time - no matter what charging numbers you use.





This is an article that references why Tesla was limiting Supercharging ( High Charging Rates ).

Tesla explains why it limits Supercharging speed after high numbers of DC charges

“The peak charging rate possible in a li-ion cell will slightly decline after a very large number of high-rate charging sessions. This is due to physical and chemical changes inside of the cells. Our fast-charge control technology is designed to keep the battery safe and to preserve the maximum amount of cell capacity (range capability) in all conditions. To maintain safety and retain maximum range, we need to slow down the charge rate when the cells are too cold, when the state of charge is nearly full, and also when the conditions of the cell change gradually with age and usage. This change due to age and usage may increase total Supercharge time by about 5 minutes and less than 1% of our customers experience this.

Tesla is not slowing down charge rates to discourage frequent Supercharging – quite the opposite. We encourage our customers to use the Supercharger network at their discretion and we committed to doubling the number of worldwide chargers just this year. We also want to ensure that our customers have the best experience at those Superchargers and preserve as much vehicle range as possible – even after frequent usage.”


Tesla battery degradation analysis reveals how long a battery might last

Charged EVs | Why is Tesla limiting the charging rate at Superchargers?


There are a ton more articles.

 

[nwdiver]

This is an article that references why Tesla was limiting Supercharging ( High Charging Rates ).

Tesla explains why it limits Supercharging speed after high numbers of DC charges

Supercharging (>100kW) perhaps.... anything <80A (<20kW)... no

There's no evidence that frequent charging at ~20kW is any worse for the battery than 2kW. I think there may be other components in the car that can be more easily stressed by heat like the charger itself but the difference to the battery is insignificant.

 

[boofagle]

@Garlan Garner youre referencing an article about fast D.C. charging. That has nothing to do with the on board AC chargers. If max onboard AC charger is 80A 20kw like @TexasEV mentioned thats still slow compared to the chademo DC charge of 50kw. You're article is referencing the response by the guy who charged almost exclusively with chademo.

 

[Garlan Garner]

@Garlan Garner youre referencing an article about fast D.C. charging. That has nothing to do with the on board AC chargers. If max onboard AC charger is 80A 20kw like @TexasEV mentioned thats still slow compared to the chademo DC charge of 50kw. You're article is referencing the response by the guy who charged almost exclusively with chademo.

Tell you what everyone. Charge at whatever rate you wish. I don't believe I will ever be in a hurry to charge a car that gets over 200 miles per charge.

The principal is that the faster you charge the more degraded the battery becomes over time. I'm not sure why someone would have to tell anyone that.

No ICE car company has to tell anyone that the faster driver the less your gas mileage will be.
No ICE car company has to tell anyone that shorter 0-60 times degrade the engine over time.
No ICE car company has to tell anyone that 55MPH in 1st gear will degrade your clutch and engine faster than normal.

So now someone has to say that the more current entering and/or entering Li-on batteries degrades the batteries faster in order for people to believe it?

Maybe technology has indeed passed up mankind.

 

[TexasEV]

No that is not the principle. There is a threshold for the small effect from frequent DC charging (resulting in a slightly slower charging rate to PREVENT battery degradation) and it's just not relevant for AC charging rates. Charge your car as slowly as you like, but please stop spreading FUD to unsuspecting new Tesla owners or potential owners that they shouldn't use the car's 48 or 72A charger to it's full potential.

 

[Garlan Garner]

No that is not the principle. There is a threshold for the small effect from frequent DC charging (resulting in a slightly slower charging rate to PREVENT battery degradation) and it's just not relevant for AC charging rates. Charge your car as slowly as you like, but please stop spreading FUD to unsuspecting new Tesla owners or potential owners that they shouldn't use the car's 48 or 72A charger to it's full potential.

I'm not spreading FUD. I said....use what you want.

Batteries get charged with DC no matter what. Batteries don't care if it starts out AC or DC. It all ends up DC at the battery and at that point....its a matter of how much current into and out of the battery.

That's not FUD.

 

[nwdiver]

The principal is that the faster you charge the more degraded the battery becomes over time. I'm not sure why someone would have to tell anyone that.

It's heat that's the enemy. Not the rate of charge. For a pack that's designed to be charged at 100kW+ the difference between 2kW and 20kW is insignificant....

IMO there are benefits to a slower rate of charge. Your line losses are lower and your on-board charger might last longer... but the battery won't care.

 

[S3XY]

Tesla — Wall Connector with 24' Cable

This?

Yes, that's the one. HPWC = High Power Wall Connector. I got it installed late last year to make sure I could get the tax credit on it. I also didn't want to get stuck waiting for a backorder when thousands of Model 3's start hitting the streets.

 

[kingjamez]

Charge rate and battery damage is an interesting topic. When charging to no higher than 80% any charge rate less than roughly 1/2C (2 hour charge) can be considered equal (2hrs to charge == 20 hours to charge) in the effect on the battery.

When going above 80%, you don't want to linger up there so super slow charge rates from 80->100 can do more damage than faster charge rates. Obviously, you are limited to how fast you can go by the constant voltage portion of the charge cycle.

I say all that to say that there is zero, ZERO difference in battery degradation for any of the onboard AC charging options on any tesla model. They just don't charge fast enough to make a lick of difference.

-Jim

 

[shrspeedblade]

It's heat that's the enemy. Not the rate of charge. For a pack that's designed to be charged at 100kW+ the difference between 2kW and 20kW is insignificant....

IMO there are benefits to a slower rate of charge. Your line losses are lower and your on-board charger might last longer... but the battery won't care.

I would more want to know what the best rate is for the lowest amount of line loss. I know with Volts it's pretty much accepted that you have LESS losses with 240V vs. 120V, but I'm sure at some point that reverses.

I'd happily charge on a regular basis at 20 amp 240v most nights as opposed to 40 amp 240v if the line losses were lower, as most nights I couldn't give a rat's caboose if the car finishes charging at 3am vs 4am it's still all off-peak.

 

[nwdiver]

I would more want to know what the best rate is for the lowest amount of line loss. I know with Volts it's pretty much accepted that you have LESS losses with 240V vs. 120V, but I'm sure at some point that reverses.

You have less losses with 240v vs 120v because you're getting twice the power for the same current. Line losses = (Current squared) x (Resistance). Doubling current increases line loss 4 fold. Increasing voltage does not increase loss... only increasing current.

It never really 'reverses' but you can get to the point that you're only providing enough power to make up for internal pack loss/use. In the winter charging at 1.2kW barely charges the car because it's using ~1kW to keep the pack warm enough to charge.

 

[diamond.g]

I would be surprised if they capped the 3 at 24A AC charging. Would that mean the UMC would be a 14-30 unit instead of a 14-50?

 

[shrspeedblade]

I would be surprised if they capped the 3 at 24A AC charging. Would that mean the UMC would be a 14-30 unit instead of a 14-50?

As someone who, like you, owns a slow charging EV with a gas backup motor (Volt) I think we can both agree that it is annoying at times. A slow charging pure electric would be far, far more annoying. Not only that, it would be outright stupidity bordering on insanity if Tesla did it, so if a regular guy like me knows this their engineers better know it too! 40A will be the minimum.

 

[nwdiver]

I would be surprised if they capped the 3 at 24A AC charging. Would that mean the UMC would be a 14-30 unit instead of a 14-50?

I would be too; I don't think the 3 will be 'capped' at 24A but I do think it's likely that will be the base charger. It would be an easy way to save a few hundred dollars on the base 3 especially since it appears the on-board chargers are 24A modules.

Charging at 24A won't effect battery longevity but it will lower the failure rate of other components especially the UMC. I'm not sure about the new ones but the first generation UMC had a failure rate pretty close to 100% after a couple years. Lowering the charge rate to 24A reduced the heat by ~60%. I'd be surprised of Tesla moves away from the 14-50 standard... it's pretty ubiquitous. Nothing wrong with charging at 24A on a 40A circuit.

As someone who, like you, owns a slow charging EV with a gas backup motor (Volt) I think we can both agree that it is annoying at times. A slow charging pure electric would be far, far more annoying. Not only that, it would be outright stupidity bordering on insanity if Tesla did it, so if a regular guy like me knows this their engineers better know it too! 40A will be the minimum.

Supercharger speed is unaffected... when you need quick charging you use a supercharger... when it doesn't matter there's not much of a difference between 40A and 24A...

 

[shrspeedblade]

Problem is, there are plenty of people (like me) who don't live close or have ready access to a supercharger. (I know the onboard charger is bypassed so it doesn't matter.) I just think if you want people to adopt EVs it's imperative to make the charging as fast as is reasonably possible, otherwise you'll get a lot of people who try one, get tired of the charge times, and go back to a ICE vehicle in the future. Maybe recommend people charge at 24A on a regular basis (I will), but have the ability to use the full 40A. I might hardly EVER charge at 40A, but I think it's a big mistake not to give people the ability out of the box.

 

[TexasEV]

I'd be very surprised if the Model 3 charger is anything less than 40A. That's one of the specs that defines a crappy EV. Tesla isn't going to make a crappy EV at any price.

 

[nwdiver]

Maybe recommend people charge at 24A on a regular basis (I will), but have the ability to use the full 40A. I might hardly EVER charge at 40A, but I think it's a big mistake not to give people the ability out of the box.

The upgrade from 48A to 72A was $1500 before 48A became standard on 75s and 72 standard on 100s. Based on that it's likely that a 24A charging module is at least $500.... $500 is A LOT to add to a $35k car for a feature that will 'hardly EVER' be used.

We'll know the answer in a few weeks... I can see ~55kWh cars coming with 1 24A module, 75s with 2(48A) and 100s with 3(72A).

If the objective is to reduce the cost of the 'bare-bones' 3 as much as possible going with a 24A charger vs 48A seems like pretty low hanging fruit. If you need faster L2 charging you're probably gonna need a bigger battery too.

 

[boofagle]

If the objective is to reduce the cost of the 'bare-bones' 3 as much as possible going with a 24A charger vs 48A seems like pretty low hanging fruit.

Agree but a talking point and perceived barrier of entry is when people ask "how fast does it charge?" I get that all the time with my Volt. That's probably the first thing people ask me when they see me plug in. If it sounds like the charge is too slow for whatever reason (even if the reason doesn't make sense since you're charging mostly over night) it could negatively impact the adoption and growth of EVs.