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They did state that all cars would support it regardless of hardware and would only require a firmware update. This is pretty irrefutable, IMHO:
Tesla said:
Interestingly Tesla made the above statement to TMCer napabill in an email regarding 120 kw support for his car (currently napabill is 90 limited).
Sorry, I disagree. It's not a strain to say that two owners who pay the same for a 2012 model year car should have received the same functionality especially when they both were sold a car that included 'Supercharging.' This is like contract interpretation. Ambiguity shall be resolved as against the party drafting the contract. Tesla sold people cars that included 'Supercharging' and we have since learned that is an ambiguous term. Tesla claims to have included Supercharging with the early cars but it's a lesser version of Supercharging. Also, let's not pretend it's something Tesla included as a gift for free; it's listed as a feature on my window sticker.
Anywho, I hope they fully enable Supercharging on your (and everyone else who didn't get it) car.
I'm definitely not trying to be disagreeable here. Things don't always come out the same in an email or forum thread as they do in a conversation so please don't take offense but I don't think Supercharging is ambiguous. It is not binary and never was. It was always variable. And expanding the range for newer cars does not violate the definition.
They didn't mention that our early cars would not support the new 120kW range but I don't see how a reasonable person would then conclude that that no longer fits the definition of supercharging. Especially since the highest rate originally mentioned was 90kW. The very fact that it changed implies that SC is not about one certain number or range of numbers.
Just my two cents. I'm still looking forward to hearing their story about this whole situation and why they didn't think they should tell us.
It wouldn't surprise me if he was already testing a 100+ kWh battery in his car. His car isn't expected to be a gauge for customer cars in the present -- at any point of 'present'.
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Good point.
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Any intelligent person knows to not mess with bonnie.
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Let's talk about trust for a moment. If this happened, I'm currently tempted to immediately ask formal questions directly of Jerome and request a formal response on behalf of Tesla. If the response doesn't sound legally binding, I'd probably press on until it does. This erosion of trust is a huge problem that continues to get worse.
Define "earliest" I guess. The first official SuperCharging unveiling/announcement on Sept 24th, 2012 said this:
> To answer the question: Will a recently manufactured replacement battery pack enable 120kw charging in a 2012 MS 85??
Older Tesla's limited to 90kW super charging - Page 30
The answer was 'NO' using 4.5 firmware as expected. Yesterday I upgraded to 5.8.4 and then immediately did a similar charging session at the same SC (Silverthorne CO) this time beginning at 6 miles instead of 15. No other cars were there.
This session begins @346 amps instead of 250 amps - Bingo!! After 2 min it dips to 293 but by 4 min it is up to 304, @7 min up to 320, from then on it is the expected slow descent to 250 @17 min (the max using 4.5), then on down to 104 amps @49 min.
I neglected to record voltage until 25 min: 380v 192a 73 kw. Next time I will bring a properly configured data sheet!
Bottom Line: After 40 min charging we went from 6 miles SOC to 200 miles so "194 miles after 40 minutes". Ended the session at 50 min = 222 miles at which point the taper was becoming really tedious for anyone other than a hyper-miler. More than enough to return home; somehow managed to keep up with a pack of skiers headed for Steamboat who showed no fear under the mixed conditions. Never went into LOW riding height and one can actually sense the difference.
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Older Tesla's limited to 90kW super charging - Page 30
The answer was 'NO' using 4.5 firmware as expected. Yesterday I upgraded to 5.8.4 and then immediately did a similar charging session at the same SC (Silverthorne CO) this time beginning at 6 miles instead of 15. No other cars were there.
This session begins @346 amps instead of 250 amps - Bingo!! After 2 min it dips to 293 but by 4 min it is up to 304, @7 min up to 320, from then on it is the expected slow descent to 250 @17 min (the max using 4.5), then on down to 104 amps @49 min.
I neglected to record voltage until 25 min: 380v 192a 73 kw. Next time I will bring a properly configured data sheet!
Bottom Line: After 40 min charging we went from 6 miles SOC to 200 miles so "194 miles after 40 minutes". Ended the session at 50 min = 222 miles at which point the taper was becoming really tedious for anyone other than a hyper-miler. More than enough to return home; somehow managed to keep up with a pack of skiers headed for Steamboat who showed no fear under the mixed conditions. Never went into LOW riding height and one can actually sense the difference.
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stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
The first talk about power was at an owner event that mentioned 90kW. Before then the only promise was 45 minutes fast charge.
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/6860-45-Minute-QuickCharge
As late as 3/6/2012 "45 minutes" was still the standard line in press releases (other ones seem to not mention fast charging at all):
http://www.teslamotors.com/about/pr...-lease-announce-first-model-s-leasing-program
Here's how the supercharger page looked immediately after the 9/23/2012 unveiling (no mention of 120kW):
https://web.archive.org/web/20120925135117/http://www.teslamotors.com/supercharger
It still said the same on 4/25/2013:
https://web.archive.org/web/20130425080028/http://www.teslamotors.com/supercharger
It was changed to mention 120kW around the time of the supercharger expansion press release on 5/30/2013 (first mention of 120kW that had a promised release):
http://www.teslamotors.com/about/pr...arger-network-delivering-convenient-free-long
https://web.archive.org/web/20130728102732/http://www.teslamotors.com/supercharger
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Good research. The messaging, to me, has been all over the board, inconsistent and/or vague. The Sept 24th press release never even says 90kw, only numbers higher than that.
For my particular situation, I still have a problem older VINs than mine having 120kw capability. One can argue that out of sequencing happens, but how far out of sequence is getting old hardware still acceptable? 1? 10? 100? 1000? 10000? That seems like a subjective line and, for me, Tesla crossed it.
For my particular situation, I still have a problem older VINs than mine having 120kw capability. One can argue that out of sequencing happens, but how far out of sequence is getting old hardware still acceptable? 1? 10? 100? 1000? 10000? That seems like a subjective line and, for me, Tesla crossed it.
Thanks for doing the side-by-side comparison. Extrapolating to zero, it would have taken at most 1 minute to add 6 miles at that charge rate so we'll tack that on to your 40 minutes.
Bottom Line:
41 minutes to 80% SOC (200 rated miles) at 120
55-58 minutes to 80% SOC (200 rated miles) at 90
That's a huge difference!
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
Yes, you have a special situation (that I don't believe anyone else here shares) in that you have people with 120kW both in front and behind your VIN number. I suspect that your car was made right at the cutoff point (same batch) and the details of VIN/component sourcing/production date etc. made it so you got the limited battery.
As for the main points, I do agree with others that it's definitely okay to ask Tesla to do something about it (you get nothing if you don't ask; there's still a chance if you do), but I think a lawsuit as some has suggested is a bit overboard and that there shouldn't be an expectation that Tesla will definitely do something (esp. something like completely free battery swaps for everyone affected).
"Huge"? I'll go with "measurable", maybe even "significant", "noticeable" is appropriate, but "huge" for 14 minute? That's a half-cup of coffee or a few more pages in a novel. Let's keep it all in some perspective.
If you're stopping at 3-4 chargers along the route (I did on my last trip) it can easily add up to an hour. I'll stick with huge.
well, 14 minutes is almost 3 times what the naysayers have been saying. suffice it to say, it's significant enough that it matters to quite a few and I don't see any reason to down play it.
> Extrapolating to zero, it would have taken at most 1 minute to add 6 miles at that charge rate so we'll tack that on to your 40 minutes. [apacheguy]
Hmm, no I didn't hit ~206 mile SOC until into the 43rd minute (43rd minute began at 205). And I did begin at 00 min. So properly: "43 min to add 200 miles".
Using 55-58 minutes (your estimate is as good as mine here) for my '90 enabled' test leaves a 12 to 16 minutes improvement. Which is essentially what you were originally saying.
I hope this is proceedurally correct. A running vidcam & running timer would be nice when I plug in the charge cord next time. Don't want to jump the gun or shillyshally.
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Hmm, no I didn't hit ~206 mile SOC until into the 43rd minute (43rd minute began at 205). And I did begin at 00 min. So properly: "43 min to add 200 miles".
Using 55-58 minutes (your estimate is as good as mine here) for my '90 enabled' test leaves a 12 to 16 minutes improvement. Which is essentially what you were originally saying.
I hope this is proceedurally correct. A running vidcam & running timer would be nice when I plug in the charge cord next time. Don't want to jump the gun or shillyshally.
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Someone (or multiple someones) mentioned battery swaps a while back. As an example of some things Tesla could do for 90kw vehicles when battery swap stations exist:
1) Replace the battery and use it for a battery swap battery. The owner would pay the degradation difference in cost at Tesla's wholesale price per battery pack. I.e. not the marked up price or service/installation fees.
2) Or perhaps free battery swaps for as long as you own the car once battery swapping is introduced. Or X free swaps.
Of course, this requires battery swapping actually gets rolled out...
1) Replace the battery and use it for a battery swap battery. The owner would pay the degradation difference in cost at Tesla's wholesale price per battery pack. I.e. not the marked up price or service/installation fees.
2) Or perhaps free battery swaps for as long as you own the car once battery swapping is introduced. Or X free swaps.
Of course, this requires battery swapping actually gets rolled out...
No. Remember that the first 6 miles are added much faster than the 6 miles going from 200 to 206. Those first six miles are added in less than a minute.
Those last six minutes can be over 10 minutes on a 85kWhr battery. I think the last 3 took me almost 10 minutes
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