P3D- vs P3D+

[Filteq]

Has anyone driven these cars back to back to compare handing and braking, etc.? I'm considering a purchase of a P3D- given the recent price cuts, but I'm curious if I'm missing anything by doing so. I have no interest in the 20' wheels or spoiler, but suspension upgrades would be nice if they are tangible.

Also, I have read that many P3D- cars have track mode enabled, but the Tesla rep says that they do not have it. Can anyone with a recent P3D- confirm?

Thanks!

 

[kbecks13]

No real suspension upgrades between the two, brakes are definitely upgraded in the P3D+ but you really won't see a significant difference unless you're tracking the car. The tires that come with the 20" tires on the P3D+ are also nice (Pilot Sport 4S), but you can easily change tires on a P3D-

You aren't really missing out on much with the D- and can always get aftermarket upgrades like coilovers or brake pads/rotors/calipers.

 

[Adam3]

The 18" wheels in P3- have low rolling resistance tires which are good for efficiency but bad at gripping/braking. P3+ has the best tires on the market, Michelin PS4. The PS4's will grip better and stop faster. You could still put better tires on the P3-.

 

[Filteq]

The 18" wheels in P3- have low rolling resistance tires which are good for efficiency but bad at gripping/braking. P3+ has the best tires on the market, Michelin PS4. The PS4's will grip better and stop faster. You could still put better tires on the P3-.

That would be my plan. I would use the 18s as the wheels for my winter tires (selling the stock tires) and get a set of light 19s with summers for performance.

I’m just curious if I’d be missing the suspension and brake upgrades that the P3D+ offers. As well as wondering if track mode is enabled for P3D- cars.

 

[Adam3]

P3- owners are saying Track Mode comes enabled, but Tesla might remove it in the future.

The big brakes are nice - i've dirven both P3- and P3+ and felt P3+ braking was more responsive and I didn't have to apply as much force. not sure how much of this was due to the better tires.

I don't think we know what suspension differences there are besides P3+ being 10mm lower. May just be different springs.

The spoiler is nice, but you can buy comparable for $500.

 

[kbecks13]

he big brakes are nice - i've dirven both P3- and P3+ and felt P3+ braking was more responsive and I didn't have to apply as much force. not sure how much of this was due to the better tires.

That's almost certainly the brake pads you are feeling. The larger calipers/rotors are only useful on track with heavy braking and very sticky tires, otherwise the stock brakes on a P3D- have no trouble engaging ABS (which means the tires are your limiting factor for braking and not the brakes themselves).

Upgrading brake pads on either the P3D- or P3D+ makes them both feel much better in terms of responsiveness and initial bite.

Suspension is pretty much the same on the two cars, just a height difference. Both are relatively soft for actual track usage and you'd likely want to upgrade to coilovers anyway, so might as well just get the P3D-

 

[Filteq]

Thanks for the feedback. After reading your replies I think the only concern for me is track mode. I would like to occasionally auto cross and also have some fun in the winter months. If they disabled that it would be sad trombone for sure.

Now I just need to decide if’s worth the $5k and the hassle of selling the 20s to ensure that track mode remains enabled.

 

[dspwhite]

and felt P3+ braking was more responsive and I didn't have to apply as much force.

Could this be due to larger brake pads?

 

[dspwhite]

Upgrading brake pads on either the P3D- or P3D+ makes them both feel much better in terms of responsiveness and initial bite.

Surely one can just compensate by pressing slightly harder? Shouldn't the goal be to aim for consistently linear stopping power from the lightest touch to the heaviest stamp of the brake pedal?

 

[UnicornDriver]

I picked up my P3D- on August 1st and track mode is disabled.

 

[dspwhite]

I picked up my P3D- on August 1st and track mode is disabled.

Is it showing on the screen at all, even if greyed out? I think I heard you have to be in park mode to enable it. Also I presume you're seeing the red underline when you hold the Tesla logo (to make sure you have the performance firmware) ?

 

[destructure00]

Is it showing on the screen at all, even if greyed out? I think I heard you have to be in park mode to enable it. Also I presume you're seeing the red underline when you hold the Tesla logo (to make sure you have the performance firmware) ?

Correct. It's not a matter of being enabled or disabled, it's either there or not there. You have to be in park to enable, otherwise the button is grayed out.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Thanks for the feedback. After reading your replies I think the only concern for me is track mode. I would like to occasionally auto cross and also have some fun in the winter months. If they disabled that it would be sad trombone for sure.

Now I just need to decide if’s worth the $5k and the hassle of selling the 20s to ensure that track mode remains enabled.

It’s really unfortunate that Tesla continues to make this Track Mode ambiguous. There is the infamous spreadsheet, news articles, etc...the misinformation and uncertainty is so weird.

Everyone has got Track Mode with the 3P so far (at least, there have been zero confirmed reports to the contrary), though.

Unless you really WANT the 3P+ (P3D+), the 3P would make a lot more sense for autocross. You will have to get new tires right away in either case (PS4S will not survive autocross unless it is cold/raining), so you’re not even getting autocross tires for the extra $5k. Of course, Track Mode is absolutely essential, as well - it is not nearly as good with Track Mode off - the car will not “magically” rotate without Track Mode - it is very frustrating.

I think it is extremely unlikely Tesla will take away Track Mode (the 3P Stealth has had it since late last year, or maybe early this year, when they released a software update to give Track Mode to ALL Performance cars, in keeping with an Elon tweet). There is just no reason I can see for them to go back on that. It would be insane.

No guarantees from me of course! But if I were in your position, I would check the MVPA, make sure it does not deny you Track Mode (it likely won’t be explicitly INCLUDED anywhere, even on the 3P+ - maybe try to look at a 3P+ window sticker as well just to compare), and make sure that the Performance update is pushed to your car BEFORE delivery. That way you can check for the Track Mode button (which will be grayed out, unless you are in park AND have the brake depresses - but if it EXISTS you are good) prior to paying. I think taking away an option worth thousands after delivery without it being part of the MVPA would be very very unlikely.

 

[destructure00]

You will have to get new tires right away in either case (PS4S will not survive autocross unless it is cold/raining)

You sure they wouldn't hold up to autocross? The speeds are a lot lower than a regular road course type track. While there are plenty of reports of PS4S chunking on regular tracks (myself included), I don't recall seeing anyone reporting this after autocross.

 

[jjrandorin]

Correct. It's not a matter of being enabled or disabled, it's either there or not there. You have to be in park to enable, otherwise the button is grayed out.

Its my belief that, since tesla is telling people that the "new" model 3 performance without the performance pack" (I cant stand the M3 nomenclature used here since its not an M3.. but I think you feel the same @destructure00 ) doesnt come with track mode but the current non performance pack cars have it, tesla might remove it in the future.

There is precedent for that (Standard range purchasers receiving standard range+ and getting downgraded via OTA updates for some features later). I fully expect tesla to do that to people who buy the model 3 performance without the performance pack now, if they are telling people "it doesdnt come with it" and people find it on their car.

Expect lots of gnashing of teeth later when its removed from those cars. For some reason, many people forget that the tesla that is delivered is not the tesla you will be driving forever (for good AND for ill). They absolutely CAN remove features that are there on delivery (such as track mode)... so whether its "there on delivery" does not matter unless it is explicitly called out as a feature of the car in writing somewhere.

If OP or anyone else who is considering buying the model 3 performance without the performance pack, and track mode is something they want, they need to get tesla to give them something IN WRITING on tesla letterhead (not an email) saying that their car will come with track mode. Failing that, they need to buy the one with the performance pack, or be prepared to live with the fact it could be removed at any point.... especially since there are reports from many people trying to buy these cars and asking about track mode that tesla is saying "it doesnt come with it".

 

[destructure00]

Its my belief that, since tesla is telling people that the "new" model 3 performance without the performance pack" (I cant stand the M3 nomenclature used here since its not an M3.. but I think you feel the same @destructure00 ) doesnt come with track mode but the current non performance pack cars have it, tesla might remove it in the future.

There is precedent for that (Standard range purchasers receiving standard range+ and getting downgraded via OTA updates for some features later). I fully expect tesla to do that to people who buy the model 3 performance without the performance pack now, if they are telling people "it doesdnt come with it" and people find it on their car.

Expect lots of gnashing of teeth later when its removed from those cars. For some reason, many people forget that the tesla that is delivered is not the tesla you will be driving for ever (for good AND for ill). They absolutely CAN remove features that are there on delivery (such as track mode)... so whether its "there on delivery" does not matter unless it is explicitly called out as a feature of the car in writing somewhere.

If OP or anyone else who is considering buying the model 3 performance without the performance pack, and track mode is something they want, they need to get tesla to give them something IN WRITING on tesla letterhead (not an email) saying that their car will come with track mode. Failing that, they need to buy the one with the performance pack, or be prepared to live with the fact it could be removed at any point.... especially since there are reports from many people trying to buy these cars and asking about track mode that tesla is saying "it doesnt come with it".

I can't offer any insight on track mode staying or going, but I do strongly feel that if track or autocross is in the car's future, the performance pack/PUP/whatever it's called now should be on the order sheet. JMO.

And I agree 100% on not calling it M3....BMW already licked that cookie

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

You sure they wouldn't hold up to autocross? The speeds are a lot lower than a regular road course type track. While there are plenty of reports of PS4S chunking on regular tracks (myself included), I don't recall seeing anyone reporting this after autocross.

I recall seeing some sad pictures here after autocross as well. To some extent it may depend on driver style and level of aggression. If you have any tendency to drift or spin tires things won’t do well. I think it’s the cornering with wheel spin that really thrashes them.

Mine survived a single autocross fine, but it was wet and cool, and I deliberately did not do all my practice laps, and I dialed it back a bit.

May as well get some 18” autocross tires at a little more than half the price (plus the price of wheels of course).

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

There is precedent for that (Standard range purchasers receiving standard range+ and getting downgraded via OTA updates for some features later). I fully expect tesla to do that to people who buy the model 3 performance without the performance pack now, if they are telling people "it doesdnt come with it" and people find it on their car.

especially since there are reports from many people trying to buy these cars and asking about track mode that tesla is saying "it doesnt come with it".

It’s not really the same. The Standard Range buyers signed a purchase agreement saying exactly what they got, and in addition, there has been ample official communication from Tesla about those limitations.

For Track Mode, the only official communication (that I am aware of) has been that all Performance cars have it (Elon Musk on Twitter). And there is (to our knowledge) nothing in the MVPA for recent cars specifically saying not included.

The only time we hear about this is when someone asks a Tesla employee or their manager - and that does not have any significance historically. That is why it is best not to ask and just read the agreement.

Fairly sure quite a few 3Ps have been sold with zero discussion of Track Mode, too - just drive off the lot, no discussion.

I would be shocked if it were removed, unless it is in the contract in writing that it is not included. I guess kind of the opposite approach to yours. I don’t think they would ever write it in anyway. But YMMV.

 

[UnicornDriver]

Track mode appears on the screen, but it's grayed out when I'm in park. Maybe I'm doing something wrong...???

 

[jjrandorin]

It’s not really the same. The Standard Range buyers signed a purchase agreement saying exactly what they got, and in addition, there has been ample official communication from Tesla about those limitations.

For Track Mode, the only official communication (that i am aware of) has been that all Performance cars have it (Elon Musk on Twitter). And there is (to our knowledge) nothing in the MVPA for recent cars specifically saying not included.

The only time we hear about this is when someone asks a Tesla employee or their manager - and that does not have any significance historically. That is why it is best not to ask and just read the agreement.

I would be shocked if it were removed, unless it is in the contract in writing that it is not included. I guess kind of the opposite approach to yours. I don’t think they would ever write it in anyway. But YMMV.

No I am fairly certain they would not write it in (I expect that anyone asking for track mode included written confirmation from tesla would NOT get it for a model 3 performance without performance pack. Virtually certain of that fact, in fact. Maybe an email, but I doubt any tesla employee would go on the record on company letterhead with that fact).

Just think back to how long it took them to include it for people who bought the model 3 without performance pack previous. It was not released at the same time. My guess (and its just a guess) that there might be some sort of legal issue with providing a car with those top speeds and that handling without the tires capable of handling said tires and speed from the factory.

Im only basing that on the fact that, for BMW (which I have stated before I am pretty familiar with), to get the "increased top speed limiter", you had to get the car delivered from the factory with summer tires. No summer tires, no increased top speed limiter (top speed was limited to 130 vs the 155 you got with summer tires). If one cared about such a thing, it was always better to get the car delivered with summer tires and then replace yourself.

We are both speculating at this point, but if "I" was purchasing, and I had "skin in the game" on a certain feature being there or not, I would not buy a car that tesla employees told me did not include that feature, even if it was there on the menu when I took delivery. Thats the crux of my point. We dont KNOW what tesla will do, but they absolutely CAN remove it... and tesla employees are saying its not included so one should not expect it to be there, even if it IS there now.