P85D motor hp controversy starts also to show in U.S. media

[whitex]

Amen....and some Tesla owners need to get a life and realize what is important and what is not. Too many whiners and complainers on TMC for me

Different things are important to different people. Those who only want to save the earth get a MS70 and spend any extra money on alternative power (solar, wind, etc) or donate to their favorite earth saving cause. Performance may not be important to you, so maybe you didn't pay the extra money to get it. Out of those who did pay for P85D, most probably value performance, so they care that the battery cannot deliver enough power to produce the advertised output hp. Of course there are also those who paid just to be able to say they have the top of the line model - as long as they can tell people the car produces 691hp, they won't care if the car won't actually do it.

 

[S'toon]

Different things are important to different people. Those who only want to save the earth get a MS70 and spend any extra money on alternative power (solar, wind, etc) or donate to their favorite earth saving cause. Performance may not be important to you, so maybe you didn't pay the extra money to get it. Out of those who did pay for P85D, most probably value performance, so they care that the battery cannot deliver enough power to produce the advertised output hp. Of course there are also those who paid just to be able to say they have the top of the line model - as long as they can tell people the car produces 691hp, they won't care if the car won't actually do it.

Wow. I live in a totally different world from rich people. I don't spend over $100,000 just to say how many HP it has. Heck, not one conversation I've ever had about cars has HP ever come up. It's always been how far can it go on a tank of fuel, fuel economy, how fast can it go, how much stuff can I fit into it.

 

[Matias]

One interesting fact. Matza had 9 hp (6%) less than advertised. What did they do? They bought the cars back, if owner wanted

"In the United States, Mazda erroneously quoted the power figure for the Japanese and Australian model in early catalogues. Car and Driver magazine and numerous owners confirmed the missing power, and Mazda offered to buy back the 2001 cars due to those misleading power claims. "

Mazda MX-5 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Freudianly]

One interesting fact. Matza had 9 hp (6%) less than advertised. What did they do? They bought the cars back, if owner wanted

"In the United States, Mazda erroneously quoted the power figure for the Japanese and Australian model in early catalogues. Car and Driver magazine and numerous owners confirmed the missing power, and Mazda offered to buy back the 2001 cars due to those misleading power claims. "

Mazda MX-5 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Can I sue people who use more hp/energy than necessary and criminally increase Global Warming, endangering future generations and life on Earth ?

 

[Matias]

Can I sue people who use more hp/energy than necessary and criminally increase Global Warming, endangering future generations and life on Earth ?

I think your question deserves it's own thread. I really can't see whats the connection with this topic.

 

[MuppetOwl]

Can I sue people who use more hp/energy than necessary and criminally increase Global Warming, endangering future generations and life on Earth ?

Sell you car, buy a bicycle and dont get kids or pets.

Dogs cause more pollution than cars | Auto Express

 

[Freudianly]

I think your question deserves it's own thread. I really can't see whats the connection with this topic.

You must be right. We are heading straight into the worst ecological crisis in human history without even braking and people who complain because their cars are not as powerful as they expected should be protected from ridicule.

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Sell you car, buy a bicycle and dont get kids or pets.

Dogs cause more pollution than cars | Auto Express

I am going to help you criticize that article. Was there Global Warming before humanity started massively using coal, oil, gas ? Were there cats and dogs on this planet before humanity started massively using coal, oil, gas ? What is the carbon footprint of humanity compared to the carbon footprint of pets ? Do pets drive cars ?

 

[Soolim]

Frankly, it is a stupid controversy. The absolute number one issue about cars is that they poison life on Earth and dangerously, criminally warm the atmosphere. Elon is trying to help save the planet and some people complain about hp !? It is like complaining about your comfort in the middle of a crucial battle during WWII. Insane !

The stupidity starts, when manufacturer makes claims which they failed to fulfill. How is insane mode and ludicrous mode relevant to saving earth? How many of the supercar owners does Tesla need to convert to save the earth? Model 3 for the masses will be the one to make the difference. I support the lofty goal of Tesla, but responsibilities in making good their promises is part of the obligation to the customer (i.e. specially the early adopters who keep the company alive). It is too much of a cliche for me to state that Customer satisfaction is paramount to the success of a company.

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On the contrary, I think they should do anything legal to replace as many polluting cars with electric cars as quickly as possible. Winning a war for survival is not about ethics.

I guess you subscribe to "The end justifies the means" work ethics?

 

[EnIgmA_BE]

Just to be clear, anyone who says the P85D doesn't perform as advertised is simply wrong. It performs better than advertised. It was said to be 0-60 in 3.2 and 1/4 mile in 11.8. It consistently tests 0-60 in 3.1 and 1/4 mile in 11.6. The 1 foot rollout is industry standard and has been forever, with every other car tested, ICE or whatever. Also, if you couldn't tell that it wasn't going to be as fast on the top end as it was on the bottom end, well, you aren't really a performance buff to begin with. It may not make the "advertised" power, and that certainly is a gripe, but don't confuse power made with performance realized. This car performs better than advertised. This may be semantics to some, but to me, there is a difference.

+1
I agree

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The stupidity starts, when manufacturer makes claims which they failed to fulfill. How is insane mode and ludicrous mode relevant to saving earth? How many of the supercar owners does Tesla need to convert to save the earth? Model 3 for the masses will be the one to make the difference. I support the lofty goal of Tesla, but responsibilities in making good their promises is part of the obligation to the customer (i.e. specially the early adopters who keep the company alive). It is too much of a cliche for me to state that Customer satisfaction is paramount to the success of a company.

Tesla needs those supercar owners. Tesla needs the money for model 3!

 

[Krugerrand]

Look! No nose cone. (or a squirrel if you prefer)

 

[vgrinshpun]

One interesting fact. Matza had 9 hp (6%) less than advertised. What did they do? They bought the cars back, if owner wanted

"In the United States, Mazda erroneously quoted the power figure for the Japanese and Australian model in early catalogues. Car and Driver magazine and numerous owners confirmed the missing power, and Mazda offered to buy back the 2001 cars due to those misleading power claims. "

Mazda MX-5 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Another interesting fact is that P85D *does not* have less hp than advertised. They advertised motor horsepower, exactly as pertinent Regulation ECE R85 *directs* manufacturers to do.

The fact about Mazda overstating hp of their car is irrelevant given that Tesla cars have hp exactly as advertised. It is just so happened that small group of P85D owners misinterpreted information put out by Tesla.

 

[Andyw2100]

It is just so happen that small group of P85D owners misinterpreted information put out by Tesla.

Where is your evidence to support your claim that it is a small group?

And I reject your claim that anyone misinterpreted anything.

Furthermore, if this "small group" misinterpreted Tesla's advertising, so did pretty much every writer and editor involved in writing and editing the P85D stories at every publication that wrote about the P85D. And there were not a small number of those.

 

[Freudianly]

I guess you subscribe to "The end justifies the means" work ethics?

I subscribe to winning the war against Global Warming by almost any means necessary.

 

[perkiset]

I can think of nothing more horrible (in this context, of course) than the HP Haters actually winning concessions from Tesla. That's exactly what they need, right? They need to be spending money on either buying back cars or in penalty fees. Yeah, that advances the cause.

I understand the argument: there's a number on a page, and I don't get that in my car. But it hits the acceleration that's advertised. Anything beyond that, frankly, is just whining IMO. Did you (the macro "you," not anyone in particular) HONESTLY purchase the Tesla so that you can whip out a number to other people and be the bigger schwing on the block? Or did you buy it for a host of wonderful reasons? I think a modicum of perspective is called for here. Winning the battle of a number, while perhaps contributing to the loss of the larger war would be insane and unforgiveable IMO. I want Tesla to succeed. I don't think that their marketing efforts or messaging are any more spun and contrived than any other company out there, car or otherwise. Welcome to marketing in the USA.

It is interesting to me that the same people seem to complain about AP, HP and the like. A lot. The amount of discord is irrational and extreme - it doesnt seem to make sense. I continue to wonder if there's another agenda. Proud of being loud and vocal and in the press?

Hmmmm.

 

[nwdiver]

I'm just joining this fray so please forgive me if this has been covered...

All vehicle HP specs are going to come with an *; It would be hard to state all of them. If I took an ICE advertised at 600HP to Denver I'll be lucky to get 500HP... that doesn't mean that the manufacturer lied. It just means that the vehicle is now operating outside test conditions...

No doubt there's a whole list of conditions a P85D would need to meet to get its advertised performance.

- Battery at 100% SOC
- Battery at rest after charging for X minutes
- Battery at 20C
- No HVAC running

 

[Vas Deferens]

I can think of nothing more horrible (in this context, of course) than the HP Haters actually winning concessions from Tesla. That's exactly what they need, right? They need to be spending money on either buying back cars or in penalty fees. Yeah, that advances the cause.

I understand the argument: there's a number on a page, and I don't get that in my car. But it hits the acceleration that's advertised. Anything beyond that, frankly, is just whining. Did you (the macro "you," not anyone in particular) HONESTLY purchase the Tesla so that you can whip out a number to other people and be the bigger schwing on the block? Or did you buy it for a host of wonderful reasons? I think a modicum of perspective is called for here. Winning the battle of a number, while perhaps contributing to the loss of the larger war would be insane and unforgiveable IMO. I want Tesla to succeed. I don't think that their marketing efforts or messaging are any more spun and contrived than any other company out there, car or otherwise. Welcome to marketing in the USA.

It is interesting to me that the same people seem to complain about AP, HP and the like. A lot. The amount of discord is irrational and extreme - it doesnt seem to make sense. I continue to wonder if there's another agenda. Proud of being loud and vocal and in the press?

Hmmmm.

I definitely see your point.

 

[SDRick]

Can I sue people who use more hp/energy than necessary and criminally increase Global Warming, endangering future generations and life on Earth ?

In the United States, you can sue anyone for anything. So go ahead.

 

[Andyw2100]

I can think of nothing more horrible (in this context, of course) than the HP Haters actually winning concessions from Tesla. That's exactly what they need, right? They need to be spending money on either buying back cars or in penalty fees. Yeah, that advances the cause.

You want to hear something interesting? I didn't give Tesla close to $150,000 to "advance the cause." I gave them that amount of money to give me the car they advertised. They didn't. End of story.

I understand the argument: there's a number on a page, and I don't get that in my car. But it hits the acceleration that's advertised. Anything beyond that, frankly, is just whining. Did you HONESTLY purchase the Tesla so that you can whip out a number to other people and be the bigger schwing on the block? Or did you buy it for a host of wonderful reasons? I think a modicum of perspective is called for here. Winning the battle of a number, while perhaps contributing to the loss of the larger war would be insane and unforgiveable IMO. I want Tesla to succeed. I don't think that their marketing efforts or messaging are any more spun and contrived than any other company out there, car or otherwise. Welcome to marketing in the USA.

I want Tesla to succeed to. But I want them to do it ethically. Perhaps you're the one that needs the modicum of perspective. Those of us upset about this issue believe we were misled, and that we did not get all that we paid for. Some people are OK with that. Perhaps you would be. I am not. Others agree with me, and also want to see the wrong righted.

It is interesting to me that the same people seem to complain about AP, HP and the like. A lot. The amount of discord is irrational and extreme - it doesnt seem to make sense. I continue to wonder if there's another agenda. Proud of being loud and vocal and in the press?

Hmmmm.

Actually there's been very little overlap between the group being vocal over the HP issue and the group being vocal over the AP issue, with one notable exception that I can think of.

As for wanting to get into the press, if that were the goal it would have been easily accomplished long ago.

I said earlier in another thread I was going to add the disclaimer to my posts that would hopefully prevent my being quoted off this site. Apparently the site software has other plans, as the screenshot below, which I have written to the admins about, will demonstrate. As soon as we get that straightened out, I'll modify my signature file.

Edit: I had to shorten the disclaimer line significantly, and couldn't use font size 1, but rather had to use font size 2, but it is there now.

 

[supratachophobia]

I'm just joining this fray so please forgive me if this has been covered...

All vehicle HP specs are going to come with an *; It would be hard to state all of them. If I took an ICE advertised at 600HP to Denver I'll be lucky to get 500HP... that doesn't mean that the manufacturer lied. It just means that the vehicle is now operating outside test conditions...

No doubt there's a whole list of conditions a P85D would need to meet to get its advertised performance.

- Battery at 100% SOC
- Battery at rest after charging for X minutes
- Battery at 20C
- No HVAC running

That's not the issue. No Tesla makes 691hp under any circumstances, ever. Period.

The recent blog post elludes to the fact it *could*, given a larger battery. But no such battery exists for purchase, nor on the horizon.

As for how the car performs, it makes it's 0-60 numbers all day long right down to 50% SOC. But those numbers use a different system than the previous Tesla models (1ft rollout). Nothing inherently wrong with that, but not something that was disclosed up front to buyers.

As for what they can..... No idea. Everyone won't end up happy whatever the outcome.

 

[SDRick]

Was there Global Warming before humanity started massively using coal, oil, gas ? Were there cats and dogs on this planet before humanity started massively using coal, oil, gas ? What is the carbon footprint of humanity compared to the carbon footprint of pets ? Do pets drive cars ?

Of course there was global warming and climate change before oil and gas was used. The Ice Age(s) would bear this out as would the fact that the climate at the North Pole was at one point tropical. The North Pole used to have a similar climate as Miami does today. Talk about global warming!