P85D now comes without dual charger??

[dsm363]

So what we're talking about, when you subtract all the overheated language, is the opportunity cost of paying $2750 cash rather than borrowing it at a low interest rate and investing the $2750. Even for those who have to scrape money together to purchase one of the lesser expensive versions, this would seem to be a nonissue.

Yes. On top of the fact that he never ordered the second charger, is upset they moved the location of adding it in the design studio, confirmed his order without checking to see if the second charger he didn't order was there or not and hasn't even received his car yet so very likely could add it to his order.

Tesla made a bunch if changes to the Design Studio in early March and I didn't notice the changes and there is no reference to the changes.
Order date 3/27, anticipated delivery date May 11-17..

Even better is they made the changed weeks before he ordered his car (according to his first post) and he didn't read what he ordered?

 

[abasile]

2) It is all about actual cost!!
I can buy almost any car I want Cash. I don't need financing, I want financing for the advantages it provides.
My wealth is in investments not in an FDIC bank and when anyone with investments converts the investments making 15-20%+ on the dollar into cash there are Capital Gains implications, so it ends up costing them another 20 to 30%+ in state & fed taxes for the cash to pay for an item. You understand this?
Financing the total cost of the car at 1.88% over 60mo. only cost 2.5% total and that saves a ton of money and anything paid for in cash cost 20-30% above an beyond what Tesla wants for the item as an after-delivery accessary, not included in the financing - plus the money is no longer earning in an investment.

Therefore, I finance the full amount for the car with low interest rate financing which keeps my investments in place making 15-20% and I'm not forced to pay the Capital Gains taxes on the amount necessary to buy items cash, out of pocket. I assume that makes sense to you!!

As long as your investments are going well, I can understand how you would prefer to finance as much as possible and avoid converting your investments to cash. While I personally prefer a more conservative approach and am not interested in leveraging my investments, I realize that I am probably in the minority in this country. Still, for a person of wealth, whether or not one can finance ~$3K of a purchase should be a pretty minor issue, IMHO.

I hope everything works out and you're able to enjoy a P85D!

 

[McMuggets]

Regarding OP.... So after selecting all the options and hitting "buy" and then putting a deposit down, you didn't check to see if you got dual chargers or a high power wall connector? That doesn't sound like Tesla did anything wrong at all. It's a very clear ordering process and the website is really easy and simple to read. I've never bought a car that easily before and usually have to read the fine-print from dealerships to make sure I get everything. Simply put... you did not order nor pay for HPWC and dual-chargers... and so you did not get them. I do agree that Tesla should maybe put a big-red-button at the bottom that says "extra accessories available", just in case for those who want all the extras. The majority of people aren't getting dual-chargers and if you do they will install it before you take possession of your car. BTW, I got dual-chargers and a HPWC... i did not find it difficult at all to order them and there was no bait to switch. I'm sorry you cannot convince your bank to finance these options, but if you talk to Tesla maybe they can finance them for you.

 

[Larry Chanin]

It's smart for Tesla because it simplifies their production. Every car that has the 2nd charger required additional manufacturing. Since not everyone orders the 2nd charger, and because the pattern will not match with other options, the installation will lead to inconsistency in production and inconsistency leads to extra production costs.

More importantly, I am certain that Tesla is seeing and will see a dwindling proportion of buyers ordering the 2nd charger. It worth noting that they made the change around the same time that shipments of the CHAdeMO adapter had begun. With the expansion of the Supercharger network, the availability of the CHAdeMO adapter at relatively low cost, and the commitment of Nissan, Kia and German manufacturers to installation of DC charging, the value of 80A AC charging is being severely diminished overall.

I know It sucks for those like you who want the 80A AC charging, because it makes the 2nd charger more expensive for you, but I think that despite the use of the HPWC in Tesla's destination charging program, the writing's on the wall for fast AC. I think that to save space, Tesla won't even offer the 2nd charger in the Model 3.



If Tesla didn't gain from it, Tesla wouldn't have done it. Try writing to Tesla or even tweeting @elonmusk to see if you can get feedback on why they changed it to be service-center installed.

While I don't agree with the original poster's premise of bait and switch, like you I am sympathetic to the fact that now the second on-board charger will be slightly more expensive for him. I agree in the short term this ordering simplification may benefit Tesla's production process, but I also believe that it is quite possible, even likely, that we may see Tesla reverse its position on factory installed dual chargers. That's because I don't share your prediction regarding the demise of high capacity destination charging and in particular the importance of Tesla's Destination Charging Program.

Like the increased pace of the Supercharger network roll-out, Tesla's Destination Charging Program is accelerating. I also believe that the two programs go hand-in-hand. It was a Tesla Program Manager that pointed out to me something that I hadn't previously focused on. That is, it is more convenient to have destination charging at your destination than having a nearby Supercharger. Once you think about it it becomes obvious why the HPWCs aren't likely to be phased out any time soon.

It goes without saying it costs orders of magnitude less to give away HPWCs than it does to "backfill" the Supercharger network with additional Supercharger Stations. So to really evaluate the benefit of dual on-board chargers we have to imagine the charging infrastructure landscape in the not too distant future when Tesla is producing 100's of thousands of EVs per year, year after year. Tesla's so-called "proprietary" charging specification will become the de facto charging "standard". For long range EVs, even from competing manufacturer's it will become obvious regarding the superiority of Tesla's charging port which can be used for both Level 2 and Level 3 charging and which is more compact and charges at a higher rate than any of the competing Level 2 or Level 3 current standards.

Let's take an example, BMW recently announced its new low cost DC "Fast" Charger. It's subsidized cost for BMW Centers is about $6,500. It weighs 125 pound and it has a capacity of 24 kW. The retail price of a Clipper Creek CS-100 J1772 is about $2,200. It has a capacity of about 20 kW and weighs about 50 pounds. The retail cost of an HPWC is $750. It has a capacity of about 20 kW and weighs 20 pounds. However, Tesla is giving them away in scores to almost any destination who will install it.

I'm betting that it won't be very long before having that second on-board charger supplementing the Supercharger network will be a very convenient option. Probably even more useful than having a clunky CHAdeMO adapter. For the folks living in Canada the advantage of high capacity AC charging is already obvious.

Larry

 

[MartinAustin]

I call Troll.

New poster, full of outrage, with questionable logic and understanding of the vehicle allegedly purchased... and the bait and switch is leading up to:

If you're organising a $125,000 purchase and you don't research it correctly (or have someone else do it for you), you risk wasting some time or money, or both, and you only have yourself to blame. He comes to a 3rd party forum to vent, instead of talking to Tesla. I think Newscutter has a point.

 

[Tedkidd]

These cars and what it will be like to own them, and what features you will need are all very complex questions fraught with fear, uncertainty, and doubt. And they are a BIG investment for most, so desire to get it right is high.

But chances are Tesla believes 80 amp charging will become less an less necessary. They probably also see that its better to have it be a less expensive option AFTER purchase, for those that like Knox, find they live in areas with a lot of 80 amp charging and want to add the second charger.

These things were MUCH more important before Supercharging was built out. Still important in Canada...

It will be interesting to see how Larry's hypothesis unfolds. I suspect for non-overnight destinations it will be more important than overnight destinations.

I got my Smart and was like: "omg, gotta get 220 to my garage STAT!" 3 months later I'm still charging on 110, and only charge a couple times a week. AND THIS IS A 65 MILE CAR! What you imagine you need and what you need are likely to be very different things.

M6, if I were you I'd be glass half fulling this. Get the car without dual chargers and you've saved some dough. In the unlikely event you realize dual chargers are worth it for you, with the price drop it's really nbd to add.

 

[Larry Chanin]

But chances are Tesla believes 80 amp charging will become less an less necessary. They probably also see that its better to have it be a less expensive option AFTER purchase, for those that like Knox, find they live in areas with a lot of 80 amp charging and want to add the second charger.

Yes, as of today. However, if Tesla's Destination Charging Program continues to grow as it has, they are going to get a lot of requests for factory installed dual on-board chargers, perhaps enough to justify reversing this recent change in the Design Studio.

These things were MUCH more important before Supercharging was built out. Still important in Canada...

Agreed.

It will be interesting to see how Larry's hypothesis unfolds. I suspect for non-overnight destinations it will be more important than overnight destinations.

Yes, if you are paying for it, it will always be the case if you have the time for a slow charge, a less expensive, lower capacity charger will fit the bill as in the case of overnight charging.

However, here we have the usual situation whereby high capacity chargers are being provided for free. Here in Florida it is noteworthy that there are significantly more Tesla Model Ss registered than any other pure electric vehicle. As of year-end 2014 there were 2,524 registered Tesla Model Ss versus 1,460 Nissan LEAFs, the second most popular pure EV in Florida. As we know the Model S is a long range EV, therefore in addition to the superior numbers on the road, it is more likely to take road trips and visit these destinations with overnight charging. If you were a proprietor of a resort or hotel in Florida, particularly a luxury resort or hotel, you might see the compelling logic of accepting a free "proprietary" high capacity charger if it was much more likely that particular EV would be visiting your establishment.

I should add that behind California, Florida has one of the highest sales of Model Ss in the nation and we actually have a Tesla project manager living in the state responsible for promoting the Destination Charging Program. If you are a Floridian opting for a dual on-board charger it might start to make more sense as HPWC destination chargers begin to proliferate here.

Larry

 

[bonnie]

Before y'all bury the destination charging HPWCs, please remember Tesla made another vehicle before the Model S. Roadster owners are able to take advantage of the HPWCs (thanks to Henry's adapter). No Supercharging option for us.

 

[Larry Chanin]

Before y'all bury the destination charging HPWCs, please remember Tesla made another vehicle before the Model S. Roadster owners are able to take advantage of the HPWCs (thanks to Henry's adapter). No Supercharging option for us.

y'all?? :wink:

Larry

 

[siucity]

These cars and what it will be like to own them, and what features you will need are all very complex questions fraught with fear, uncertainty, and doubt. And they are a BIG investment for most, so desire to get it right is high.

For me, and everyone I know, cars are purchases, not investments.

 

[Canuck]

...However, the obvious reason for my Dual Charger mistaken assumption and the real issue you fail to appreciate is that changing the Design Studio with no reference to the updates is nothing more than “bait and switch”...

"Bait-and-switch is a form of fraud used in retail sales but also employed in other contexts. First, customers are "baited" by merchants' advertising products or services at a low price, but when customers visit the store, they discover that the advertised goods are not available, or the customers are pressured by sales people to consider similar, but higher priced items ("switching")." Bait-and-switch - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It's not "bait and switch" but if you feel that way, why would you buy from a company that, in your mind, commits fraud? That makes no sense to me. Please explain.

I also like how you threaten to cancel your order...

I may cancel the car!!

Please, make your concerns known to Tesla, in the same terms as you post here. Then maybe they will respond to you like they did to this guy:

Tesla Model X Cancellation

That would solve the problem since something tells me you are not cancelling the order, despite your empty threat.

Therefore, I finance the full amount for the car with low interest rate financing which keeps my investments in place making 15-20% and I'm not forced to pay the Capital Gains taxes on the amount necessary to buy items cash, out of pocket. I assume that makes sense to you!!

That doesn't make sense to me. You're not avoiding capital gains with your reasoning. You're simply deferring it. I have investments too but paid cash for the car. And there's no way all of your investments are making 15-20% unless you're very lucky and have an unbalanced portfolio which is foolish investing since it can all come crashing down in one fell swoop. But what make the least amount of sense to me is that you don't have a few extra grand lying around so you don't need the financing on such a small amount, especially the way you talk. That's chickens scratch.

 

[cwerdna]

Don't you all see???? He is an electrical engineer!

Yep.

My profession is Electrical Engineering!!

WOW, and you have a 60kW Tesla
...
purchase a 60kW Tesla at half the cost

And, w/that, he mixed up kW with kWh.

 

[JimmyAZ]

Cancel your order, buy a Volt, and call yourself a winner. You're probably better off without a Tesla.

 

[SFOTurtle]

WOW, and you have a 60kW Tesla, so now you are judging my desire to optimize the functionality of a vehicle technology fraught with challenges and obstacles by adding a second 10kW charger that you see no value in!
Try reading my OP and my replies for actual content and your questions and sarcasm will be answered.

There was zero sarcasm in my post. You still haven't answered the question that has now been asked maybe half a dozen or more times in this thread: If you wanted the dual chargers, why didn't you order them? Can you answer that question? And since you didn't order them, where is the bait and switch??

BTW, I own two MS -- one MS 60 and another MS 85. Both have dual onboard chargers, although we've rarely taken advantage of them on the 85. I was glad I ordered them with the MS 60 (I bought the MS 85 on the second hand market and the prior owner had them, but I would have bought the car without them) when Superchargers were only few and far between. Sure, they come in handy from time to time, but if I had never ordered them, I would have still taken delivery of the car and with a big smile. From your description of the technology being "fraught with challenges and obstacles," it really sounds like you don't want or need a MS. Challenges and obstacles are not on my list of adjectives for either my MS60 or MS85.

 

[Tedkidd]

Tesla is a technology company almost more than it's a car company. It takes some getting used to - how quickly options and features change.

Best decision is to expect change, expect in 6 months your car will be vastly improved from over the air updates, and newer cars will be improved with hardware you won't have. With every change there are some who benefit, and sometimes those who don't. (Be glad you didn't get a p85+ on September 23)

If you can afford a p85d and you're interest has brought you this far, don't listen to these guys. Get the car, you'd be nuts not to buy one.

 

[davidc18]

Having just ordered a 70D, our experience with visiting the Dania SC was very positive and very easy. We went back many (many) times to ask questions, driving and sitting in different cars with different options while we were trying to create our perfect car. When we had questions about the kids car seats fitting into the back, they had us take our seats out of our Odyssey to install them in one of the cars. They also had one of the mechanics come out to talk about his MS and the car seats he uses for his kids. Anyway, the whole process so far has been great. We have just received a phone call and email from the delivery specialist and are looking forward to talking with him today.