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MarcG
Active Member
Same here. By the way, good to see you back in this thread! Could you please add the google doc link to your first post on the first page so others can easily get to it? Thanks!
I still would like more detail from tesla on range mode. It reduces HVAC energy use. It's also been rumored that I changes the thresholds for pack heating and cooling. Ok, at the sacrifice of what? Battery life? There has to be a downside, otherwise there would be no need for range mode.
Andyw2100
Well-Known Member
I'm not sure what you're asking here.
I agree we could use more detail about exactly what range mode does. But I'm not sure what you're referring to about battery life, there having to be a downside, and "otherwise there would be no need for range mode."
I know you're extremely knowledgable about all this stuff, which is why your question confuses me. Did you combine a question about range mode and sport mode, and type "range" when you meant to type "sport" at some point?
Nope, I meant range mode.
Tesla gives us a toggle: range mode on or off. Why?
For one, it reduces the energy used for cabin heat and cooling. If you're not trying to get the most range, then you're fine using more energy for comfort. This makes sense. But if this was the only thing range mode did, why call it "range mode"? Why not just call it climate Econ mode, which it just so happens is what the UI displays when range mode is on and is a term used by other cars.
Because tesla chose not to do this, we can infer that range mode does other things. What are they? We believe it changes the thresholds on when the BMS will start to heat or cool the battery pack. We do know that range mode on the roadster behaves this way. If there was no downside to more extreme temperature thresholds, then there would be no need to give the user a toggle. Just use the more tolerant settings all the time. But tesla choose to expose range mode in the UI. Which means there has to be a downside, and my guess is it is battery capacity/longevity.
With respect to the P85D, tesla has said that torque sleep is active all the time, but that it will be most effective with range mode on. Why? What else does it change?
Does that make sense?
I'd really like a more detailed explanation on what range mode does on the model S so that I can make an informed choice on when to use it. Turn the question around: what am I sacrificing if I chose to leave range mode on all the time?
Andrew
Tesla gives us a toggle: range mode on or off. Why?
For one, it reduces the energy used for cabin heat and cooling. If you're not trying to get the most range, then you're fine using more energy for comfort. This makes sense. But if this was the only thing range mode did, why call it "range mode"? Why not just call it climate Econ mode, which it just so happens is what the UI displays when range mode is on and is a term used by other cars.
Because tesla chose not to do this, we can infer that range mode does other things. What are they? We believe it changes the thresholds on when the BMS will start to heat or cool the battery pack. We do know that range mode on the roadster behaves this way. If there was no downside to more extreme temperature thresholds, then there would be no need to give the user a toggle. Just use the more tolerant settings all the time. But tesla choose to expose range mode in the UI. Which means there has to be a downside, and my guess is it is battery capacity/longevity.
With respect to the P85D, tesla has said that torque sleep is active all the time, but that it will be most effective with range mode on. Why? What else does it change?
Does that make sense?
I'd really like a more detailed explanation on what range mode does on the model S so that I can make an informed choice on when to use it. Turn the question around: what am I sacrificing if I chose to leave range mode on all the time?
Andrew
As far as I can tell, it does two things:
1. It limits the power used by the HVAC.
2. It limits battery heating to the minimum amount necessary. This is fairly easy to show on two days when the temperature where the car is parked is around freezing. On one day set the charge to end about when you're going to leave, turn on range mode and note where the regen limiting yellow line is. On the other day, turn off range mode and note the line. There is a significant difference on my car.
3. Range mode is most effective on short drives. On longer drives, it doesn't matter so much because the battery and cabin already warm.
So what I do is:
1. Charge and preheat with range mode off.
2. Drive with range mode on (most of my daily trips are short--25 to 30 miles one way).
There may be more details to range mode than I know about, but those are what I've found.
1. It limits the power used by the HVAC.
2. It limits battery heating to the minimum amount necessary. This is fairly easy to show on two days when the temperature where the car is parked is around freezing. On one day set the charge to end about when you're going to leave, turn on range mode and note where the regen limiting yellow line is. On the other day, turn off range mode and note the line. There is a significant difference on my car.
3. Range mode is most effective on short drives. On longer drives, it doesn't matter so much because the battery and cabin already warm.
So what I do is:
1. Charge and preheat with range mode off.
2. Drive with range mode on (most of my daily trips are short--25 to 30 miles one way).
There may be more details to range mode than I know about, but those are what I've found.
Could not agree with you more. I want to know *exactly* what happens when I switch Range Mode ON and OFF.
Because I also want the full benefits of Torque Sleep on my P85D while also having Climate Control operate at full, normal capacity. Don't tell me in order to get the maximum benefit of Torque Sleep I also have to live with reduced Air Conditioning in the summer in the deep south. Now, maybe you do get full torque sleep with Range Mode OFF but since we don't know many have assumed that is not the case.
Mike
Andyw2100
Well-Known Member
Unless I'm mistaken here, planning to have the charge end at around the time you plan to leave is only serving to muddy the waters of what you are trying to demonstrate.
You are trying to demonstrate that with range mode on, preheating won't heat the battery pack, resulting in regen being limited, and that with range mode off preheating will heat the battery pack, and regen will be less limited. But when charging the pack has to be heated to a certain amount in order to charge, and that has to happen without respect to range mode being on or off. So to see the impact of range mode on preheating and regen it would actually be better to make sure the battery had finished charging long before you were set to leave, so that it had time to cool again. (That's for purposes of this test only--not for anything else. Obviously for efficiency it is better for the battery to charge closer to when we are leaving.)
I'll add that with range mode on and the battery cold it's not just regen that can be limited, but power as well.
Also jerry33 didn't state this explicitly, though I know he is aware of it, but the lack of pack heating in range mode continues when you start driving. So with range mode on, the regen limit and power limit lasts a lot longer, as it is only extraneous heat that is warming the pack.
billarnett
Member
I don't get why we need an option to control the HVAC. If I want to decrease energy usage I can just turn the HVAC off or adjust it appropriately with the normal controls. I agree that Range mode probably is doing something else, too, and I would like to know what.
Range mode in the Roadster meant that the max power available was cut in half. It would be useful if the S had a similar option (though it would be more appropriate in the Acceleration section: "Range/Sport/Insane").
Range mode in the Roadster meant that the max power available was cut in half. It would be useful if the S had a similar option (though it would be more appropriate in the Acceleration section: "Range/Sport/Insane").
So we agree that range mode changes the temperature tolerances before active heating and cooling turn on. An effect of this is that regen and max power will be reduced for a longer period of time, and for short trips, the limits may never be lifted.
So with range mode off, I'm sacrificing some range to have a more consistent user experience and increased performance.
Is that it? I'm betting no.
So with range mode off, I'm sacrificing some range to have a more consistent user experience and increased performance.
Is that it? I'm betting no.
Andyw2100
Well-Known Member
As you've pointed out, we don't know, and it would be good to know.
Until the torque sleep update, my wife and I had never used range mode. We had not yet taken a trip where we needed to charge to 100%, or where we were going to be close to getting low on battery power. The car has been used to commute to work, which is about a 55 mile trip one-way. We only started using range mode when Tesla introduced Torque Sleep and told us that it would be more effective in range mode.
I'm really not that happy to hear that to get most of the benefits of the torque sleep we need to use range mode, and the negatives associated with it. As I mentioned elsewhere, that seems like a double-whammy to me if we choose not to use range mode. It's one thing to have to use range mode when trying to extend the range because you're on a trip, trying to eke out every possible mile. If some people want to achieve maximum efficiency all the time, by using range mode, that's fine. But to have to use range mode, along with the negatives that go with it, just to achieve the originally promised efficiency doesn't sit well with me.
MarcG
Active Member
Alright everyone, I've uploaded some more data to the spreadsheet based on the 4 legs of my latest trip to Tahoe now that I'm on 2.2.179.
Results: slightly worse than previous torque sleep versions (.139, 140, and 167) but still way better than pre-torque sleep.
My theory is that Tesla cut back some of the torque sleep conditions in .179 to avoid the dreaded loss of power messages we were getting on .167.
See this thread for more details: P85D Lost power on road,
Results: slightly worse than previous torque sleep versions (.139, 140, and 167) but still way better than pre-torque sleep.
My theory is that Tesla cut back some of the torque sleep conditions in .179 to avoid the dreaded loss of power messages we were getting on .167.
See this thread for more details: P85D Lost power on road,
MikeBur
ManualPilot
Interesting, the closest comparison I see between these numbers is row 74 and my trip on Saturday on .179. My trip was shorter, and was ~50 degrees and compared out at 380Wh/m vs my 350, even though I'm on 21" Sottozero3 winter tires.
I want to get more consistent with how I measure for next week's trip of ~500miles (maybe 1500). Is there a recommendation for the way people measure? Eg. Avg speed (run a timer?), elevation change (evtripplanner?), etc?
Thanks, Mike
Andyw2100
Well-Known Member
I think EV Trip Planner is a great tool that we can use to allow us to compare efficiency with each other by first comparing our efficiency to what EV Trip Planner would predict for the trip. So if you compare your actual numbers to EV Trip Planner predicted numbers, and then say, "I did 10% better on wh/mi than EV Trip Planner Predicted and 8% better on range miles used than EV Trip Planner Predicted" that's a metric all of us can use for comparison. Raw wh/mi numbers are somewhat meaningless, since we're all travelling different routes, in different weather conditions, with different elevation changes, etc. But our individual results as they relate to what EV Trip Planner predicts our results should be --IS-- at least somewhat meaningful, and something we can use for comparison.
And it just so happens I started a thread to do this here: Comparing P85D Torque Sleep efficiency (versions .139 and .140) to EV Trip Planner
Something to Look Forward To...
Here's what all you cold weather suckers have to look forward to in your P85D when the weather warms up
70 degrees today in South Louisiana with very little wind. Made a round trip to Baton Rouge and back (133 miles total including my errands in Baton Rouge). P85D with 21" Michelin Pilot Sports (staggered factory setup) and ~4,800 miles on them. Firmware = .179. Range Mode = ON. Climate Control = ON. TACC = ON. On the outbound leg mostly 70 MPH. On the return trip mostly 65 MPH.
I did a full range charge at the Baton Rouge Supercharger before returning (arrived there with 29 Rated Miles remaining). So, the numbers SINCE LAST CHARGE represent the return trip at a steady 65 MPH. The TRIP A is the total round trip.
Note that I left the BR Supercharger showing 254 miles Rated Range, drove 64 actual miles and had 196 Rated Miles showing when I got home. Gained 6 miles of Rated Range in that 64 miles. That's a little deceiving since I did a full range charge and the rated miles didn't start decreasing until I was about 3 miles down the road.
The return trip represented by the Trip Estimation Graph above.
The last 30 miles of energy usage above.
My non-scientific comparison to the 18 months I spent with my P85+ is that I can now get equal energy usage in my P85D with Range Mode ON as I could achieve in the P85+ with Range Mode OFF (I never turned on Range Mode in the P85+).
Mike
Here's what all you cold weather suckers have to look forward to in your P85D when the weather warms up
70 degrees today in South Louisiana with very little wind. Made a round trip to Baton Rouge and back (133 miles total including my errands in Baton Rouge). P85D with 21" Michelin Pilot Sports (staggered factory setup) and ~4,800 miles on them. Firmware = .179. Range Mode = ON. Climate Control = ON. TACC = ON. On the outbound leg mostly 70 MPH. On the return trip mostly 65 MPH.
I did a full range charge at the Baton Rouge Supercharger before returning (arrived there with 29 Rated Miles remaining). So, the numbers SINCE LAST CHARGE represent the return trip at a steady 65 MPH. The TRIP A is the total round trip.
Note that I left the BR Supercharger showing 254 miles Rated Range, drove 64 actual miles and had 196 Rated Miles showing when I got home. Gained 6 miles of Rated Range in that 64 miles. That's a little deceiving since I did a full range charge and the rated miles didn't start decreasing until I was about 3 miles down the road.
The return trip represented by the Trip Estimation Graph above.
The last 30 miles of energy usage above.
My non-scientific comparison to the 18 months I spent with my P85+ is that I can now get equal energy usage in my P85D with Range Mode ON as I could achieve in the P85+ with Range Mode OFF (I never turned on Range Mode in the P85+).
Mike
Andyw2100
Well-Known Member
Here's what all you cold weather suckers have to look forward to in your P85D when the weather warms up
Thanks for the report!
Just wondering why you chose to do a full range charge since you didn't need close to that much range to make it back. I thought the general consensus was to only range charge when needed, because range charges were bad for the battery.
Thanks again for the report!
dirkhh
Middle-aged Member
I thought the general consensus was that frequent range charges or range charging and letting the car sit at 100% SOC (or close to that) was bad for the battery.
From way back when we were discussing different charging strategies I seem to remember that it was thought that the occasional 100% charge and then deplete down to single digit SOC and then charge back up to 90% was considered a) not harmful to the battery and b) useful to help recalibrate the range display in the car...
First, you're welcome.
Second, as to why the range charge:
1. Because I was going to immediately burn it off when I departed the supercharger
2. Because I was the only one there (no one waiting to charge)
3. Because I had the time
The general consensus here may be that range charges are bad for the battery but I don't necessarily buy into that. I do buy into not letting the battery sit for extended periods of time at a full charge nor a very low charge. I charge to 90% every time I charge (have always done that and did not see any discernible degradation of battery capacity in the 18 months of previous ownership). I don't believe the occasional charge to full does any harm whatsoever to the battery.
Mike
Andyw2100
Well-Known Member
Interesting. And it sounds like dirkhh remembers discussions that are consistent with your thinking.
You didn't need to mention 2 for me. I wouldn't have thought you'd range charge without the need to at a supercharger if people were waiting to charge.
MarcG
Active Member
I've just updated the spreadsheet with 15 new rows from my long weekend trip from San Francisco to Indian Wells, CA (east of LA) where it was much warmer than NorCal.
A couple of interesting points:
1. The heat definitely had an impact on the battery getting hotter than the car liked as I could hear the fans go off much more often than usual
2. However, the impact of heat on range was minimal even though I had the AC on most of the time
3. I was pleasantly surprised that high speeds (around 80mph) kept consumption around 400 Wh/mi and not significantly higher
A couple of interesting points:
1. The heat definitely had an impact on the battery getting hotter than the car liked as I could hear the fans go off much more often than usual
2. However, the impact of heat on range was minimal even though I had the AC on most of the time
3. I was pleasantly surprised that high speeds (around 80mph) kept consumption around 400 Wh/mi and not significantly higher
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