Performance Model 3 Drag Race - 2021 vs 2018 - Is it Faster?

[AlanSubie4Life]

Also start learning from someone that has physically cracked open a 990 motor, swapped inverters, and put it back together and MADE a P car

AGAIN...there are no binned motors. The 990 has 6 less mofsets hence lower power. Ingenext has PROVEN this, cracked the code and made ghost. How do I know? Bc I’m a 980 LRAWD and I have ghost and it’s EXACTLY identical to P. So keep dreaming of a world where Elon has spoken to us truthfully. View attachment 621736View attachment 621737

Nice to see my speculation from mid-2019 has (apparently) been confirmed (though note my comment about the "6 poles" here is incorrect as corrected later in that thread). Can you point to the original source (YouTube video or whatever?) for these images, I am curious about more details?

Model 3 Motors on the Tesla Parts Catalog

I’m going to hazard a crazy guess here:

Normally they use 24 drive FETS (6poles X 4 FETs per pole). The 4 FETs are grouped together in a silkscreen box on the board, and I think they may have separate drive circuits (don’t know), but source and drain are connected in parallel presumably.

I’m going to guess they’ve gone to 18 drive FETs. (6 X 3). They depopulated one of the spots to save money.

That would give ~75% peak current rating. Note that 630/840 (mentioned above) is 75%. (Ratio 3/4)

 

[TwoK4drSi]

Nice to see my speculation from mid-2019 has (apparently) been confirmed (though note my comment about the "6 poles" here is incorrect as corrected later in this thread). Can you point to the original source (YouTube video or whatever?) for these images, I am curious about more details?

Model 3 Motors on the Tesla Parts Catalog

Images came straight from the CEO of ingenext himself. One thing to note...in order to do the inverter swap inside a 990 casing you need a “wrecked” performance. That doesn’t mean the DU has to be broken persay but the performance car has been be shown as salvaged. From him...you can order a performance inverter for $1700 USD and transplant that into the casing. Tesla will check to see if the VIN on the car is shown as salvaged and then they will send you 1 inverter. Basically open heart surgery. Below are images of the 990 car receiving a 980 inverter swap. So yes it is possible and I am assuming EG knows how to do it too. Cost wise it probably be only feasible if the 3 you are buying is already salvaged. I wouldn’t do it on a clear title car.

 

[SomeJoe7777]

At least you got to 1.5 pages before the “have to be right online” kiddos popped in @MasterC17

???

Now you can't ask questions or present an opinion without getting ridiculed?

Not sure why I even bother reading here anymore.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

I'm just glad the perennial 990 vs. 980 motors debate has finally been put to rest (happened a while ago it looks like) - they're different, so not going to get 980 performance out of a 990 for your track days. Sorry about the off-topic post. Hopefully we can avoid further discussion of the "binning" of the 980 motors here! Not going to change anyone's mind at this point, and apparently we're not going to stop people from being confused about rollout, either.

my battery has lost 13% and it is still within 0.01 seconds on a 0-60 and 1/8 mile time. So I’m not sure if a higher % loss makes a difference, but mine has not, at all.

At the current time, we can probably say that the 2021 will (assuming no overheating or other limiting factors) be able to output the same maximum power levels as the 2018 for about 13-15% longer (assuming 10% capacity loss on the 2018).

 

[Marius A]

Binning has been used s term long before Tesla made he model 3. Reputable sites like Tom's Hardware have definitions like
"And vendors may bin-out high-performance components by disabling some of their capabilities and marketing them as lower performance to meet their own supply/demand needs. "
And by the way, it's the community which uses he term binning, and what e mean by it is very clear. It means that you get the capabilities you pay for, and the way Tesla solved it was to (probably) software limit it. "Binned CPUs have different part product numbers", you mean the way a binned LR is called an LR while a non-binned is called performance?

10-15 years ago you could buy a CLK 280, and it turned out he only difference from the CLK 320 was a chip, a chip containing software.

What re you crying about? Is it semantics? Does it piss you off if a moving company brings a bigger truck than you need? do you ask them to make your couch bigger?

 

[Knightshade]

"Binned CPUs have different part product numbers", you mean the way a binned LR is called an LR while a non-binned is called performance?

No, I don't... because when you ask for a replacement 980 rear DU from Tesla they don't ask you if your car is a P or an LR.

Because it's the same part and in no way whatsoever binned

 

[Marius A]

No, I don't... because when you ask for a replacement 980 rear DU from Tesla they don't ask you if your car is a P or an LR.

Because it's the same part and in no way whatsoever binned

According to YOUR definition of binned. According to other definitions of binned:
And vendors may bin-out high-performance components by disabling some of their capabilities and marketing them as lower performance to meet their own supply/demand needs.

And vendors may bin-out high-performance components by disabling some of their capabilities and marketing them as lower performance to meet their own supply/demand needs

And vendors may bin-out high-performance components by disabling some of their capabilities and marketing them as lower performance to meet their own supply/demand needs.

If Intel repaired CPUs they wouldn't ask you about he product number for your L2 cache.

You have chosen to define binned in a way that makes you angry. And again, being angry at unofficial definitions when everyone has a shared lexical definition.
Fine, from now on I'll refer to 980 in performance vehicles as "privileged 980" and 980 in LR vehicles as "poor man's 980"

 

[TwoK4drSi]

According to YOUR definition of binned. According to other definitions of binned:
And vendors may bin-out high-performance components by disabling some of their capabilities and marketing them as lower performance to meet their own supply/demand needs.

And vendors may bin-out high-performance components by disabling some of their capabilities and marketing them as lower performance to meet their own supply/demand needs

And vendors may bin-out high-performance components by disabling some of their capabilities and marketing them as lower performance to meet their own supply/demand needs.

If Intel repaired CPUs they wouldn't ask you about he product number for your L2 cache.

You have chosen to define binned in a way that makes you angry. And again, being angry at unofficial definitions when everyone has a shared lexical definition.
Fine, from now on I'll refer to 980 in performance vehicles as "privileged 980" and 980 in LR vehicles as "poor man's 980"

Dude...do you even hear yourself? My god get off your ego and stay on the topic at hand. There are way more seasoned people here way more knowledgeable than you and this topic has been discussed for YEARS. If you have to resort to a definition outside the Tesla world just to prove your point and defend Elon then you’re just a troll. Here...inside the world of Tesla and TMC there is FACTUAL information AND pictures shown and proven. Please go read and educate yourself before conversing with us on your biased opinion.

 

[Marius A]

Dude...do you even hear yourself? My god get off your ego and stay on the topic at hand. There are way more seasoned people here way more knowledgeable than you and this topic has been discussed for YEARS. If you have to resort to a definition outside the Tesla world just to prove your point and defend Elon then you’re just a troll. Here...inside the world of Tesla and TMC there is FACTUAL information AND pictures shown and proven. Please go read and educate yourself before conversing with us on your biased opinion.

You re literally not reading what I wrote several times already.
We all know the 980 is in a bunch of LRs, and the community decided to all it binned. Nobody are saying they are different, we're just using the term "binned" instead of something else.
And a few of you are RAGING about it. What are you upset about? Does it make you feel better if we say "software limited" instead of binned?
And you know, if I get a definition outside this forum, a definition which is older and was the base for how it's used in this forum , then you are the one who wants the definition to be different than what has already been established for years in other communities.
We literally do not disagree that the poor man's 980 is different from the privileged 980, we just used "binned" as a term for "software limited".

 

[Let's Drive]

We literally do not disagree that the poor man's 980 is different from the privileged 980, we just used "binned" as a term for "software limited".

In reading and learning from this thread, I'd actually prefer the more accurate term, if the DU isn't actually binned and assigned a unique part number. As a person who's familiar with the PC binning process, calling it "binned" suggest something other than what is taking place.

 

[Sam1]

???

Now you can't ask questions or present an opinion without getting ridiculed?

Not sure why I even bother reading here anymore.

Wasn't directed at you specifically. Just the fact that people will derail a thread and make themselves look like idiots just in an attempt to come out the other side of the argument being able to claim they're right and you were wrong, even if it was based on a technicality or semantics. That's pretty rampant around here.

 

[SomeJoe7777]

Wasn't directed at you specifically. Just the fact that people will derail a thread and make themselves look like idiots just in an attempt to come out the other side of the argument being able to claim they're right and you were wrong, even if it was based on a technicality or semantics. That's pretty rampant around here.

Straying off-topic, yes, that's fairly common.

However, in this case I think the discussion of 980 motors that were deployed early (2018) vs. 980 motors deployed recently (2020) has merit. Is there a difference between them? The drag racing in the original post appears to show very little, if any difference, although test conditions may need to be more tightly controlled.

"Being right on the Internet", yes that's common too. I just wish more discussions were conducted by people with more open minds to analysis, evidence, and experiment-oriented results rather than blatant "you have no idea what you're talking about, I'm right, that's the end of it" which we see far too often.

 

[TwoK4drSi]

Straying off-topic, yes, that's fairly common.

However, in this case I think the discussion of 980 motors that were deployed early (2018) vs. 980 motors deployed recently (2020) has merit. Is there a difference between them? The drag racing in the original post appears to show very little, if any difference, although test conditions may need to be more tightly controlled.

"Being right on the Internet", yes that's common too. I just wish mode discussions were conducted by people with more open minds to analysis, evidence, and experiment-oriented results rather than blatant "you have no idea what you're talking about, I'm right, that's the end of it" which we see far too often.

Yes....staying on topic and stating facts:

Elon 2018: difference between AWD and P is lot sorted, highest sigma, double burn in
Reality 2018: 100% software unlock (same DU and same PN) proven with a 2018 with ghost. Power levels exactly the same.
Reality post 2018 and stealth models: 6 mosfets (different DU and PN)

Again...there is no difference in 980 Motors among all years. Even Model Ys have 980 motors when they created stealths. Proven to be unlocked to P levels as well. I know one personally.
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THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A BINNED TESLA MODEL 3 980 MOTOR

 

[Knightshade]

According to YOUR definition of binne

Also yours as we will see in a second!

According to other definitions of binned:
And vendors may bin-out high-performance components by disabling some of their capabilities and marketing them as lower performance to meet their own supply/demand needs

And vendors may bin-out high-performance components by disabling some of their capabilities and marketing them as lower performance to meet their own supply/demand needs

And vendors may bin-out high-performance components by disabling some of their capabilities and marketing them as lower performance to meet their own supply/demand needs.

When they do this they not only are selling part with a different part number but different capabilities

The 980 is exactly the same PN AND capability in a P or LR AWD Tesla though.

because they are not binned in any way

If Intel repaired CPUs they wouldn't ask you about he product number for your L2 cache.

A warranty claim on an Intel CPU would replace the entire CPU not the L2 cache.

Because the L2 cache is not an FRU (field replicable unit)

A tesla drive unit is one


If your intel CPU dies, they replace it with another CPU of the same part number. Because they're all functionally identical at that point.


In the case of a Tesla drive unit- all 3s in 2017/2018/part of 2019 came with the same PN for a rear drive unit.

The 980.

If you ask Tesla to order you a 980 drive unit- you get the same 980 regardless of if it's going in a P or not.

Because the same PN is functionally identical


But unlike Intel, there is no other, lesser, version of the same part that just tested worse

Because Tesla never did any binning in production.

At all.

Like you've been told like 10 times now.


I mean, weird hill to die on, but keep going if you want I guess

You have chosen to define binned in a way that makes you angry

No, I've chosen to define it based on what the word actually means.

Hilariously even when we use your definition we find Tesla still did not bin the rear DU on the 3, ever

Fine, from now on I'll refer to 980 in performance vehicles as "privileged 980" and 980 in LR vehicles as "poor man's 980"

That would be no less silly than the rest of your nonsensical argument where you incorrectly keep pretending there's any difference of any kind between the 980 in one car versus another I suppose.

At least you're consistent in that regard

 

[SomeJoe7777]

Yes....staying on topic and stating facts:

Elon 2018: difference between AWD and P is lot sorted, highest sigma, double burn in
Reality 2018: 100% software unlock (same DU and same PN) proven with a 2018 with ghost. Power levels exactly the same.
Reality post 2018 and stealth models: 6 mosfets (different DU and PN)

Again...there is no difference in 980 Motors among all years. Even Model Ys have 980 motors when they created stealths. Proven to be unlocked to P levels as well. I know one personally.
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THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A BINNED TESLA MODEL 3 980 MOTOR

I don't think you and I are talking about the same thing. We're not on the same page. The meaning of what you're saying vs. what I'm saying are different.

Probably not appropriate to expand on this in this thread, but let me know if you actually want to lay out the differences and discuss.

 

[TwoK4drSi]

Wasn't directed at you specifically. Just the fact that people will derail a thread and make themselves look like idiots just in an attempt to come out the other side of the argument being able to claim they're right and you were wrong, even if it was based on a technicality or semantics. That's pretty rampant around here.

This is a car forum where technical aspects SHOULD lie. Where else can we have a database for this information? For Overall social media....generally Instagram is for clout, Twitter is for opinions, Facebook is for friends / personal life, LinkedIn is for professional connections, TikTok is for dance videos, etc.

Because you cannot justify factually your point in the debate resorting to making it seem like we are at fault for being “technically correct”. No personal attacks or unreasonable comments was made unlike the snide comment and jabs you make. If you want to join in and debate....fine but if something is disproven with facts...learn to stand down.

 

[Sam1]

This is a car forum where technical aspects SHOULD lie. Where else can we have a database for this information? For Overall social media....generally Instagram is for clout, Twitter is for opinions, Facebook is for friends / personal life, LinkedIn is for professional connections, TikTok is for dance videos, etc.

Because you cannot justify factually your point in the debate resorting to making it seem like we are at fault for being “technically correct”. No personal attacks or unreasonable comments was made unlike the snide comment and jabs you make. If you want to join in and debate....fine but if something is disproven with facts...learn to stand down.

I never stated anywhere who was doing what, but, this is a perfect example of you only wanting to argue a point, no matter the relevance.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A BINNED TESLA MODEL 3 980 MOTOR

Apparently we're not going to avoid further discussion, lol.

I do tend to think you're right, however, I would comment:

Elon said:

"Performance drive units are lot sorted for highest sigma output & get double the burn-in."

Notably, he did NOT say this same procedure was NOT done for regular AWD vehicles. In other words: He didn't say this was done specially for Performance vehicles. He just said it was done for Performance vehicles. (Specifically, he didn't say "only Performance drive units are lot sorted..."). He's a salesman, so that would be a sensible approach, to boost the cachet, even if none actually existed (nor was any implied!).

So, it's possible Elon could have been not lying, AND that there was no difference, ever, in any 980 units. Or it could be @Knightshade's argument above: that Elon actually was saying "only Performance" was done this way...but then they changed their mind before production.

So, it's entirely consistent to say that there is no such thing as a binned motor, or a specially screened version of the motor, nor did Elon imply there was.

I just don't see any point in arguing about this further, because I'm not sure whether we'll ever be able to figure out the truth of Elon's ridiculous tweet.

What we do know, for sure, is that:

1) All 980s in LR AWDs (non-Performance) can be modified to produce Performance level power output, aftermarket. See above comments. (At least, all the ones that have been tried, to my knowledge.)
2) 990s do not have the same number of FETs and therefore have reduced peak current capability.

And more to the topic of this thread, at the moment, there's not really any reason to believe there would be any significant difference between the 2021 Performance and the 2018 Performance, since the motors are basically the same (same part numbers, different revision, with minor unknown production tweaks). The battery has changed, but it's not that unusual for denser batteries to have LOWER peak current capability than lower density ones (just search "Panasonic 18650 versions" and peruse the results - yes, I know the Model 3 uses 2170s)...cramming in extra wraps of electrodes might make the "pipe" for electrons out of the battery a little bit higher resistance. Not saying that's the case here though. Probably they increased density without significantly affecting maximum current output.

 

[MasterC17]

Let me just add one thing: the 2021 has a bigger battery. If it didn’t get quicker, it would be the first Tesla not to gain performance after that.

A more energy dense battery pack does not equal more power. Power = Voltage x Current. The voltage in the battery pack did not change just because it has more energy density. Therefore, the only way to increase power draw would be to increase the current. That could only be done if the drive units commanded more power from the battery pack. Historically the Model S got a power increase with each new generation of the battery pack because Tesla could and wanted to do it. There were no other models to compete with, and they could explore the limits of the technology without any real concerns because profitability wasn't a big issue back then. With the Model 3, Tesla has to be very careful that a gap exists between the 3 and the S, and that warranty claims are at an absolute minimum. That being said, when the Plaid S is released, I wouldn't be surprised if Tesla offered a more powerful 3 (for a premium, of course).

 

[SomeJoe7777]

Therefore, the only way to increase power draw would be to increase the current.

You can also increase power by lowering the battery's internal resistance. Voltage sags as the current draw goes up due to the internal resistance of the battery. No-load terminal voltage might be 400V, but place a 1200A draw on the battery and terminal voltage might sink to 300V, maybe lower with lower states of charge.

Lower the battery's internal resistance through different cell construction or different cell materials, and the voltage will sag less. The same 1200A draw might only sink voltage to 325V, which means an extra 30 kW of power output.