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Performance not getting 310 miles promised

Discussion in 'Model 3' started by Dan_LA, Jan 3, 2019.

  1. AlanSubie4Life

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    #381 AlanSubie4Life, Jan 9, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2019
    Details, but we'd also need to know what miles these % numbers corresponded to. As the battery degrades, I believe the miles/% reduces from 3.1mi/% to something less (and the available kWh goes down). (A degraded battery shows 100% charge when fully charged, AFAIK - though admittedly I don't KNOW this, others can comment. But it does NOT show 310 miles anymore...) We have no way of knowing from your pictures what the state of your battery is. It may be just fine; I'm just pointing out that we can't draw a conclusion from your stated data.
     
  2. AlanSubie4Life

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    #382 AlanSubie4Life, Jan 9, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2019
    If you followed the exact same reverse route and it was about 21.3 miles return, and you got exactly 300Wh/mi on the return trip, and your heat usage was non-existent, and your driving style identical to the morning, then the elevation change between work and home for you is about 500 feet. That's a lot of assumptions though. Of course, this can be cross-checked on any topo map.

    I have about a 500 foot descent on the way to work over 10 miles, and I routinely get well under 200Wh/mi on the way there and well over 300Wh/mi on the way back. It's just physics; PE = mgh. And Google calculator is great at sorting out the units.
     
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  3. DB-Cooper

    DB-Cooper Member

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    #383 DB-Cooper, Jan 10, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2019
    Here's some photos of me being able to manipulate my driving to hit the "TARGET" line. I believe it is 250 on the dot. Here is some evidence.

    Here you can see that both 249 and 250 show the dotted line as completely invisible (meaning they both appear to be the target figure). However, 245 shows a notable separation between the lines whereas 253 shows no whitespace separation. This shows that 253 is technically closer to the target than 245, leaving me to deduce that 250 is the target number as 249 would split 245 and 253 evenly, and the pictures don't show that. A 247 sample would clarify that, but I'm going to call it as the target being 250. Pics attached.
     

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  4. AlanSubie4Life

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    Yes, I checked this yesterday. Apparently the RWD target is a little lower (possibly the 242 number?). I guess that makes sense, though I guess it is a bit arbitrary. To me what matters is Tesla’s stated capacity and stated rated range, which gives the 242 number.. but all of that is kind of arbitrary anyway.

    Anyway, I do not think this means that we have a 77.5kWh (usable) pack. Tesla says it is 75kWh usable, so that is what I would expect a full 100%-0% discharge to give you if you spent no time in park - assuming BMS wasn’t confused at the 100% charge level and battery is healthy. If BMS was confused the second time might no closer to 75kWh.

    If anyone has actually done this experiment it would be cool I suppose. I have done partial discharges and they extrapolate to very slightly below 75kWh (74kWh I think for my last one).
     
  5. spinbackwards

    spinbackwards Member

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    On the way home last night I was wondering if the rack was affecting range.

    Then I snapped out of it. I got how much space stuff like this was taking up in my head. It was at that point I decided to just drive. The car gets me to where I need to go, most times with plenty of juice to spare. Or, to where I can juice up.

    I knew when I bought the car that it's tech and tech is iffy. I took a risk, I'm happy as a hooker with new shoes I did.

    God willing and the creek don't rise, this won't be our last Tesla. The next one will surely be better, cheaper, faster - cuz that's how tech goes.

    Until then, I'm just gonna drive, man. Life is short.

    Peace and love!
     
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  6. ModelNforNerd

    ModelNforNerd Active Member

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    Every time the rack has been marked as available (twice, so far...), it has sold out in minutes.
     
  7. blake99111

    blake99111 Member

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    Gosh, I don't know why I was ever concerned about the range. It's practically unlimited if you drive downhill haha
     

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  8. TMSfanatic

    TMSfanatic Member

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    If you get less than 250, you're definitely speeding and aggressive most of the time
     
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  9. dfwatt

    dfwatt Member

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    While the 18 MXM tires have less rolling resistance, I am seeing the AWD P model with 20's and Michelin 4S hit its rated range on the highway pretty much on the button, if I go 70mph, at 70-72 degrees with AC on. Alignment helps - excessive toe in or out can give you as much as a 5% range hit. Also all you range complainers should get more familiar with the energy tab and start paying more attention to how to improve range; 1) TP at 42+; 2) car properly aligned; 3) go 70 not 85 on the highway, etc. etc. Range is proportional to the inverse square of your speed. Going twice as fast uses 4X as much juice and cuts your range in half. I don't hear anyone complaining about a nearly 400 mi range if you drive around town 25-35. But that's a hittable target- I've seen 190whr/mi in our P versions in warm weather.
     
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  10. Ticobird

    Ticobird Member

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    I agree 100% with you dfwatt although I have yet to take my usual 350 mile road trip.
     
  11. Dan_LA

    Dan_LA Member

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    Nope, I was tricked by Tesla false advertising using a 18" EPA test, I am getting 200 miles in average. Not speeding, driving like I did with my previous LR RWD 10,000 miles driven by me.
     
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  12. Dan_LA

    Dan_LA Member

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    Good point, but my point is Tesla is inadvertently advertising the car as 310 miles range, same range as the Beast LR RWD Range 310 (which in real is 334 miles) and some folks might not know EPA was done 2017 with 18" wheels and that the "REAL" range is about 250 miles. If I got the Performance as first Model 3, I wouldn't be nagging about this... but since I drove 10,000 miles LR RWD, I know it's not the driver problem.
     
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  13. Zoglog

    Zoglog Member

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    I mean this was expected for my performance My ctsv wagon gets 10.8 mpg on my commute so I wasn't surprised I'm avgin 300+w/h

    I know if I drove more conservatively it would be better or if it was more fwy driving with coasting. Plus the rims aren't as efficient as the aeros and the summer tires are more sticky with more rolling resistance.

    My wife's model 3 rwd will always be more efficient than mine. That's why I still think the performance model 3 is such an idiotic car. But then again I already own one idiotic car so I figured I'd get another one.
     
  14. Ticobird

    Ticobird Member

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    I must say for the record I thought my range was less than it should be but after reading this thread I have come to realize I didn't buy the M3P+ for its range but rather its performance. I revel in knowing the level of performance that resides under my right foot. This vehicle is a keeper. I will not sell it. Before I forget to mention it, my M3P+ has more range than my previous 2015 Model S 85 as long as I behave myself.
     
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  15. WATT TF

    WATT TF Member

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    I think Model 3 battery life is confusing because of how we measure other battery powered devices such as a cell phone.

    It would be like Apple claiming iPhone batteries can last up to 5 days. Sure they can if you make a few calls per day and don't use it otherwise.

    Most Model 3's can drive 310 miles. If they are going 45 miles per hour in 60°-70° without headlights, stereo, climate control, or extra weight.

    We are using the battery to power our experience which can include more than getting from Point A to Point B.
     
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  16. Ticobird

    Ticobird Member

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    Well stated. I have no doubt I could achieve 310 miles or more driving 60 mph on the interstate while on a road trip.
     
  17. TANGO SUKKA

    TANGO SUKKA Member

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    i dunno about you guys, but i get pretty good efficiency in my p3d huehuehue
     

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  18. DB-Cooper

    DB-Cooper Member

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    #398 DB-Cooper, Jan 15, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2019
    I think people forget that EPA MPG and max tank are also rarely hit in everyday driving. Of course, EVs take a larger speed penalty, but my opinion is there are external and exacerbating factors that make people hyper-sensitive to this. In no particular order:

    1. The idea of running low on gas or running on fumes causes some anxiety, but people know they can easily find a gas pump within a couple minutes/miles and fully fill their car in ~5 minutes. With an EV, the ability to charge and the time to charge (excluding superchargers) is difficult and lengthy. As a result, people naturally worry and get more anxiety about range, running out, etc. Outside of long road trips, it's best to adjust the mindset away from filling a tank of gas and more like your cell phone. Most people, even if their cell phone has 60% battery at night, they still plug it in while they sleep and have a full charge in the morning.

    2. 310 mile range isn't really 310 mile range. As stated above, nobody can afford to really go empty in these cars, so the absolute 310 mile range isn't as usable as a gas range for the above stated reasons. Additionally, due to battery health and others, most people consider the usable range of this vehicle to be 10-90% SOC. So effectively, 310 mile range is cut down to 248 mile range instantly. Outside of well planned road trips or emergencies, 310 miles was never a reality. Of course gas tanks should never run dry so there's an unusable nature to them, but it's less a concern and doesn't require as much planning as an EV so it's more forgivable.

    3. In my experience, 250 wh/mi is pretty lofty, it requires effort to achieve in most cases. If there are hills, high speed roads or aggressive drivers, it's hard to maintain. I find driving very gingerly, 280 wh/mi to be more appropriate. I have some hills, and I only briefly touch 70 mph on occasion for ~1 mile of highway driving. If I drive without regard, 300 wh/mi is more realistic, that's a more carefree approach to driving and enjoying some of the performance of the car. At 300 wh/mi, that's another 20% usage hit over the rated, bringing 248 down to 186 miles range (assuming the 10-90% SOC).

    People just don't pay as much attention or complain when their gas cars don't get the stated range. I drive very calmly and in my previous ICE cars, I never got EPA, I also didn't pay as much attention. Finally, ICE cars don't really make a point to advertise maximum range on tank, so people come to their own conclusion. I have a 20 gallon tank, I get 20mpg, I get ~360 miles before needing to fill up (just based on gauges), so it's not really 400 miles. Effectively, the range statements are sort of unprecedented to most ICE converts. That said, it'd be nice if Tesla reported multiple figures and/or stated something like, "~250 daily range, 310 max range." just to spell it out a bit better.

    I do think EV drivers just need to re-adjust how they think of range outside of long road trips. Treat it more like your phone or laptop, basically charge it whenever you can and don't worry. I've adjusted my reality to basically consider I only have about 200 mile range without planning for charging. Fortunately, for driving around Austin and surrounding areas, that's plenty. I can also get to Dallas or Houston without stopping, but I will need to charge there. Understandably, for others that drive long distances/long durations often, have limited access to charging or are routinely doing long road trips, an ICE or plug-in hybrid might be more appropriate, but for people like me, this is perfect. 200 mile range is perfect for me, but if I needed the 300 for any reason, regardless of rated range, it simply would not be an ideal vehicle for me.
     
  19. AnesDragon

    AnesDragon Member

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    Being an owner of P3D+ since the end of Sep 2018, I have to say that I am a very happy owner of one. I love the acceleration and handling of the car as well as the styling. I am one of those lucky guys that have charging at work. I use my car for daily driving mostly highways and also to skiing in the local mountain. I average 310 Wh/mi during the winter just driving normal 5 miles above the speed limit. It can consume >700 wh/mi going up the local mountain resorts but then I get negative wh/mi coming back to home. My work is about 22 miles from home and most of the driving is from home to work and back plus minimal errands. So I average about 50 miles/day. For me, I don't really worry about the wh/mi but if I did, I would not choose P3D+. It would have been nicer to put a bigger battery in the performance model to offset the range loss for the cost differential of the vehicle.
     
  20. WATT TF

    WATT TF Member

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    In the case of my commute speed is as big an enemy as HVAC.

    I take a 5-lane highway about 20 miles from Chicago to the NW Suburbs. After most recent construction the speed limit increased from 55 mph to 70 mph - on most days the left lane is doing 85-90 mph. Each lane to the right slows down 5-10 mph until you reach the right lane going 70-75 mph.

    On my way to and from work I decide to either go the speed of traffic (75-85 mph) to arrive a few minutes earlier, or to drive 70 mph with to improve long term efficiency. I generally have cruise set to 70 mph while semi trucks fly by me...

    It's not practical for me to drive to work everyday with the climate control set to 69-70° while going 70-80 mph. I consume 360-400 wh/mi when doing this, and consume 200-250 wh/mi going 65 mph without using HVAC.
     
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