Performance not getting 310 miles promised

[AlanSubie4Life]

Now car has 85miles left on the battery, I drive 45-55 miles per day commute, trying to get to 10% but feeling nervous as the range is not reliable. The graph average says 65miles range though.. Might be too close of call to leave it to 10% so I can recharge to 100%. Should I just drive around and recharge it?

Why not just figure out how many rated miles you use on a typical day, and then just set your charge limit to that level + 10% (or 31 miles) tonight? Tomorrow you should be at 10% or so when you get home, no stress.

If that does not exceed the 50% level (the minimum stop point you can set), you'll have to interrupt the charge. So if you're charging overnight you might need to tell the car to charge immediately for tonight and then manually interrupt in an hour or whenever it gets to where you want it.

 

[Hurricane350]

Only someone who has driven a Prius would ever think there's a valid situation where having driven a Prius = "street cred".

I think maybe you should go back to your Prius.

Street cred? What are you talking about? All I'm doing is refuting your statement with facts. You said you GUARANTEE that I would see an efficiency loss in 20-30f weather. I did not, I actually saw better numbers. Same with my 2014 Infiniti Q50S Hybrid AWD. Not better than EPA with my Q50, but for the 2 years I owned that car, I always got comparable numbers to what I was expecting.

Go back to my Prius? Really? Wow, just wow.

 

[Dan_LA]

Why not just figure out how many rated miles you use on a typical day, and then just set your charge limit to that level + 10% (or 31 miles) tonight? Tomorrow you should be at 10% or so when you get home, no stress.

If that does not exceed the 50% level (the minimum stop point you can set), you'll have to interrupt the charge. So if you're charging overnight you might need to tell the car to charge immediately for tonight and then manually interrupt in an hour or whenever it gets to where you want it.

I thought the whole point was to drain 100%-10% in one charge... not that I could top off it... but yeah it makes sense to do that, doing now and setting up timer to stop it manually.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

I thought the whole point was to drain 100%-10% in one charge... not that I could top off it... but yeah it makes sense to do that, doing now and setting up timer to stop it manually.

I honestly am not sure what the procedure is but seems most sensible to get 10% and then charge up to close to 100%.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

@Dan_LA

Since you’re in Southern California and have a P3D+ (Same for me) here is a picture of my typical consumption for most of my 18-mile round-trip commute.

I do have a nearly ideal commute on 40-50 speed limit surface street with many traffic lights. And the big peak (and valley at the beginning) are the hill down/up to my house. I didn’t use heat today because my car was outside in the sun in the daytime so was not bone chilling cold in the evening. Plus it was 50-55 degrees out. Used seat heat.

Just to help you calibrate and see whether maybe you are seeing something unusual. I don’t think you are but you can compare for yourself.

 

[diamond.g]

I thought the whole point was to drain 100%-10% in one charge... not that I could top off it... but yeah it makes sense to do that, doing now and setting up timer to stop it manually.

Charging every few days means you pack is getting colder than it would if you charged every night. Until they give us a range mode (thus disabling pack warming) we are stuck with the higher energy usage for a cold pack. Of course the downside to range mode is it is likely that regen will take much longer to return.

As an aside, I drove home from my inlaws last week and during my trip I actually picked up range as the battery got warmer (didn't charge while at their house and didn't want to charge cold pack at Fredericksburg, drove to Glenn Allen to charge).

 

[Jaywlker]

Haha no, that was me taking my mother in law (no quick starts) to a train station near my work. It was a combination of having the heat on plus 75-80 mph speed.

If that was my mother-in-law she’da sucked that battery dry with the joy-kill of her presence. I agree: no fun!

 

[JeffK]

I thought the whole point was to drain 100%-10% in one charge... not that I could top off it... but yeah it makes sense to do that, doing now and setting up timer to stop it manually.

Don't forget, if you are around 20% at home, you can always turn the heat on HI for an hour to get near 10% without any risk that you'll get stranded away from home.

 

[ModelNforNerd]

Charging every few days means you pack is getting colder than it would if you charged every night. Until they give us a range mode (thus disabling pack warming) we are stuck with the higher energy usage for a cold pack. Of course the downside to range mode is it is likely that regen will take much longer to return.

As an aside, I drove home from my inlaws last week and during my trip I actually picked up range as the battery got warmer (didn't charge while at their house and didn't want to charge cold pack at Fredericksburg, drove to Glenn Allen to charge).

Tesla recommends being plugged in even when you're not charging overnight. It allows the BMS to control the pack temp, even if you're not adding range.

 

[hdAge]

Now car has 85miles left on the battery, I drive 45-55 miles per day commute, trying to get to 10% but feeling nervous as the range is not reliable. The graph average says 65miles range though.. Might be too close of call to leave it to 10% so I can recharge to 100%. Should I just drive around and recharge it? haha

I would look at the Energy consumption graph at both "Instant Range" and "Average range" (for 30 miles) tabs, take the least value of both and subtract another 15 to 20% from that value. So if your battery is showing 85 miles range left, lets assume your energy graph would be showing 75 miles (for Average) and 70 (for instant). 70 is the least number, taking another 20% off will come to 56 miles. As long as you dont gun it for the next 56 miles, or dont use excessive heat or ascend a 2000 ft cliff and have the right tire pressure, you are guaranteed atleast 56 miles. To be further safe I would also make sure there is some supercharger on your commute (even if you have to deviate few miles) as a backup plan.

If you have already charged, no worries and you can try next time.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Tesla recommends being plugged in even when you're not charging overnight. It allows the BMS to control the pack temp, even if you're not adding range.

It sounds like you are implying it will draw a low level of power from the wall for this? Or you are saying vampire drain will increase if the car is plugged in? Do you have meter-proven info for this?
I ask because my impression is that Tesla does not energize the UMC/Wall connector relays and the charger in the vehicle unless they will be drawing substantial current. This is to improve efficiency of the on-board charger (better at high loads). I think. I could be wrong about this but I assume that is why they let the car discharge a few %, then top up once every couple days. The alternative (which they don’t do) is to use the UMC to constantly supply the phantom drain that the car is using - again, I think that is because it would be very inefficient to do so.

So, getting back to the assertion - BMS isn’t super energy intensive, so if it works as you say, it would require that the UMC and on-board Charger to be operating at a low load condition. Or it would require the car to increase BMS activity and the vampire drain in response to being plugged in (and then it would top up more frequently in the high load condition state). Is this what happens?

I guess what I am wondering (in other words) is whether your overall energy consumption on average goes up when the car is connected to the wall more often (due to this resulting in more BMS acitivities taking place). And, do you have data showing this effect?

You’d need a meter on the UMC or a whole house meter where you can separate the usage from your other usage and look closely at the BMS behavior, and I can’t really do that.

I would think if you plugged in the car and set the charge threshold 10% below the charge level, that the car would not draw any power from the UMC overnight even if it is a little chilly (talking chilly Southern California temps here). If So that would suggest no power due to BMS. Anyone know?

 

[FlyNavy01]

It sounds like you are implying it will draw a low level of power from the wall for this? Or you are saying vampire drain will increase if the car is plugged in? Do you have meter-proven info for this?
I ask because my impression is that Tesla does not energize the UMC/Wall connector relays and the charger in the vehicle unless they will be drawing substantial current. This is to improve efficiency of the on-board charger (better at high loads). I think. I could be wrong about this but I assume that is why they let the car discharge a few %, then top up once every couple days. The alternative (which they don’t do) is to use the UMC to constantly supply the phantom drain that the car is using - again, I think that is because it would be very inefficient to do so.

So, getting back to the assertion - BMS isn’t super energy intensive, so if it works as you say, it would require that the UMC and on-board Charger to be operating at a low load condition. Or it would require the car to increase BMS activity and the vampire drain in response to being plugged in (and then it would top up more frequently in the high load condition state). Is this what happens?

I guess what I am wondering (in other words) is whether your overall energy consumption on average goes up when the car is connected to the wall more often (due to this resulting in more BMS acitivities taking place). And, do you have data showing this effect?

You’d need a meter on the UMC or a whole house meter where you can separate the usage from your other usage and look closely at the BMS behavior, and I can’t really do that.

I would think if you plugged in the car and set the charge threshold 10% below the charge level, that the car would not draw any power from the UMC overnight even if it is a little chilly (talking chilly Southern California temps here). If So that would suggest no power due to BMS. Anyone know?

I think what you're saying is correct. I installed a small meter on my NEMA 14-50 outlet so I could monitor my monthly usage since my roommate and I split the bills. I've noticed the UMC draws ~3.7W whether it's plugged into the car or not (presumably this small vampire draw is to power the little green LED's on the charger, etc).

I left my car set to 80% over the holidays and checked the app a few days later and it was at 76%, with the UMC plugged in, so I assume like you said, that it lets the car lose some preset level of charge (maybe 5%) before turning the UMC back on to top it off again. I haven't paid close enough attention to see what that level is, but I know that the owner's manual says to leave the car plugged in when not in use, so it must turn on at some point to keep the battery conditioned.

I will be going on a 6 month deployment later this year so will be interesting to monitor what it does remotely from my phone while I'm across the globe.

 

[ModelNforNerd]

It sounds like you are implying it will draw a low level of power from the wall for this? Or you are saying vampire drain will increase if the car is plugged in? Do you have meter-proven info for this?
I ask because my impression is that Tesla does not energize the UMC/Wall connector relays and the charger in the vehicle unless they will be drawing substantial current. This is to improve efficiency of the on-board charger (better at high loads). I think. I could be wrong about this but I assume that is why they let the car discharge a few %, then top up once every couple days. The alternative (which they don’t do) is to use the UMC to constantly supply the phantom drain that the car is using - again, I think that is because it would be very inefficient to do so.

So, getting back to the assertion - BMS isn’t super energy intensive, so if it works as you say, it would require that the UMC and on-board Charger to be operating at a low load condition. Or it would require the car to increase BMS activity and the vampire drain in response to being plugged in (and then it would top up more frequently in the high load condition state). Is this what happens?

I guess what I am wondering (in other words) is whether your overall energy consumption on average goes up when the car is connected to the wall more often (due to this resulting in more BMS acitivities taking place). And, do you have data showing this effect?

You’d need a meter on the UMC or a whole house meter where you can separate the usage from your other usage and look closely at the BMS behavior, and I can’t really do that.

I would think if you plugged in the car and set the charge threshold 10% below the charge level, that the car would not draw any power from the UMC overnight even if it is a little chilly (talking chilly Southern California temps here). If So that would suggest no power due to BMS. Anyone know?

Some of us have day jobs. I just repeated a recommendation from the manufacturer. I'm sorry I haven't had a chance to run a double blind study in variable conditions with placebos.


It's a car. It has a battery.

Your phone has a battery too. You plug it in. Same with the car.

I'm sure someone has gone all out and individually metered every circuit in their home. I haven't.



(to sound a little less snippy about it:


Pg 122 in the owners' manual:


"About the Battery:
Model 3 has one of the most sophisticated battery systems in the world. The most important way to preserve the Battery is to LEAVE YOUR VEHICLE PLUGGED IN when you are not using it. This is particularly important if you are not planning to drive Model 3 for several weeks.

When plugged in, Model 3 wakes up when needed to automatically maintain a charge level that maximizes the lifetime of the Battery.

Note: When left idle and unplugged, your vehicle periodically uses energy from the Battery for system tests and recharging the 12V battery when necessary."

 

[Dan_LA]

@Dan_LA

Since you’re in Southern California and have a P3D+ (Same for me) here is a picture of my typical consumption for most of my 18-mile round-trip commute.

I do have a nearly ideal commute on 40-50 speed limit surface street with many traffic lights. And the big peak (and valley at the beginning) are the hill down/up to my house. I didn’t use heat today because my car was outside in the sun in the daytime so was not bone chilling cold in the evening. Plus it was 50-55 degrees out. Used seat heat.

Just to help you calibrate and see whether maybe you are seeing something unusual. I don’t think you are but you can compare for yourself.
View attachment 367224

Alan, appreciate it man! So here is my morning experience (after Tesla recommended to full reset car):

In the morning, Wh/mi was showing 1300, when I had time to take pic was 1,146.. car was plugged but I had stopped charging after 5-10min.

Decided to drive not worried about range since I topped yeterday-10-20 miles, left home with 102 range, arrived at work with 84, total 21.3 Miles driven, 219 Wh/mi !! Heater/AC off, Sport Mode, Low Regen Brakes, average 85 MPH. I guess it make sense who said before that heavy wheels also good when in motion, cruising, secret might be coasting (like I did 30 months with BMW i3 75 miles range).

But I think my BMS was off, Tesla Support didn't mention but at some point I heard "it all looks good... wait a minute.. hum can you hold I need my superior to authorize one thing here... came back and told me to reset the BMS now and told me to reset 2x a month."

So my take on all this for whoever new is coming to read here:

1) P3D+ real range is 220-260miles because of 20" wheels, EPA is based on 18" Primacy tires I assume. Totally legal from Tesla, but not cool to customers in my opinion, as much as I am devoted to Elon purposes, there is the right way and the wrong way always, regardless of loopholes on laws.

2) Reset Car 2x a month or once in a while. Go to safety, lock the doors, disconnect Bluetooth, and power off, car should be off for 3min+ and then come back with a Tesla logo, if screen comes back sooner it didn't reset it, tried 5 times so I know.

3) Folks suggested here: drain battery to 10% and recharge or supercharge it to 100% few times, like 4x ; use Brake Regen at Low level (why? read all posts); freeze to death and dont use Heater, use the butt heater thing; heat the car plugged whenever charging, battery will work better for sure; change for a LRR (Low Resistance Rolling or something like that you get that) tire, or smaller or lighter wheels; etc I might be forgetting something but basically that's the summary.

Appreciate everyone's effort here to add your experience, I'm sure it helps clear up things and everyone experience is different, at the end of day like someone said it, we enjoy even if have to charge daily with 100miles range of pure adrenaline haha.. and worry about numbers for once in a while trips.

PS: how do we share pictures like you guys are doing? I was able only by album media thing... the picture asks for a an url, you give your dropbox url or something? Found a work around... but took a while...

 

[feierbach]

M3 owner. I was actually shocked that the miles left was so accurate. I relied on that for a long trip and was not disappointed. That's steady highway driving. When I started showing off acceleration to friends, driving in crazy traffic then mileage went down but not to the extreme that dan_la reported. I also use and love regenerative breaking so I'm sure that helps.

 

[Cycle11111]

This all sounds a tad odd. I have a P3D with 18 inch wheels and Goodyear snow tires for the winter - I got 18s as I live in Truckee CA and work in the Bay and it is easier to get snows for the 18s. The mileage I get predicted on the consumption graphs is very accurate. I drive up and down between the Bay and Truckee all the time. I typically have heat at 64F-68F and use the seat heaters and am very comfortable. Right Before XMAS I drove from the Bay to Rocklin (near Sacramento) and got 249wh/mile. Then starting at the foothills near Rocklin to Truckee I got 398wh/mile. Now today I drove from Truckee to MTV in one shot and got 205wh/mile - had about 75 predicted miles left when I got to work. I use Regen on Standard except when up in Truckee and it is slick and then I turn down to low. Oh I have no regen issue on the the snows and was driving 65-72mph when traffic was moving well

 

[JeffK]

M3 owner. I was actually shocked that the miles left was so accurate. I relied on that for a long trip and was not disappointed. That's steady highway driving. When I started showing off acceleration to friends, driving in crazy traffic then mileage went down but not to the extreme that dan_la reported. I also use and love regenerative breaking so I'm sure that helps.

Do you have a performance model?

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Decided to drive not worried about range since I topped yeterday-10-20 miles, left home with 102 range, arrived at work with 84, total 21.3 Miles driven, 219 Wh/mi !! Heater/AC off, Sport Mode, Low Regen Brakes, average 85 MPH. I guess it make sense who said before that heavy wheels also good when in motion, cruising, secret might be coasting (like I did 30 months with BMW i3 75 miles range).

You should check your elevation at work and at home, by the way. To me it looks like this is largely a downhill run, for that economy & speed (though drafting could have been helping too). But for the P3D+ I doubt it is just drafting. So if you see more on the way home you know why.

It is 1.6kWh (6.6 rated miles) or so per 1000 feet for the AWD/P3D, unless you are carrying rocks. You have to distribute it by number of miles and add/subtract to your drive economy to correct for it.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

It allows the BMS to control the pack temp, even if you're not adding range.

I just repeated a recommendation from the manufacturer.

I was just asking...did not mean to elicit a snippy response. Sorry.

I understand that few people have time for fiddling around looking at energy use for no reason, but some people have the information for various reasons (like splitting power with a roommate) so I was just asking whether you knew this BMS controlling pack temp claim to be the case because I thought you might be in that situation.

Tesla definitely recommends you leave it plugged in, but they don't say it is to control the pack temp.

Based on my experience and my friend's experience in SoCal, but without hard data (which is why I asked the question), I'd be willing to bet that leaving the car plugged in does not impact pack temperature in typical conditions (and Tesla does not claim that in the manual in the section you quoted). I think at the moment, the only thing you can do to impact the pack temperature is to adjust your charge time start so that the pack is still warm from overnight charging when you start driving in the morning (or preheat the car which may well be advisable but that takes extra energy). And the timed charging is a good strategy if your charge times & leaving time are fairly consistent (if it doesn't impact your utility billing) as it will save you a little bit of otherwise completely wasted heat energy (which keeps your regen up first thing).

My friend in San Diego routinely leaves his car plugged in overnight but it's done nearly immediately (he doesn't do a timed charge since he likes to charge his car with his solar generation), so the battery is nice and cold in the morning (it's 40-45 degrees) so he gets the limited regen message and half the dots are in place and has to get basically to work before he has regen. So that's anecdotal evidence of no heating from just being plugged in. (But again, no actual data.)

 

[ModelNforNerd]

I was just asking...did not mean to elicit a snippy response. Sorry.

I understand that few people have time for fiddling around looking at energy use for no reason, but some people have the information for various reasons (like splitting power with a roommate) so I was just asking whether you knew this BMS controlling pack temp claim to be the case because I thought you might be in that situation.

Tesla definitely recommends you leave it plugged in, but they don't say it is to control the pack temp.

Based on my experience and my friend's experience in SoCal, but without hard data (which is why I asked the question), I'd be willing to bet that leaving the car plugged in does not impact pack temperature in typical conditions (and Tesla does not claim that in the manual in the section you quoted). I think at the moment, the only thing you can do to impact the pack temperature is to adjust your charge time start so that the pack is still warm from overnight charging when you start driving in the morning (or preheat the car which may well be advisable but that takes extra energy). And the timed charging is a good strategy if your charge times & leaving time are fairly consistent (if it doesn't impact your utility billing) as it will save you a little bit of otherwise completely wasted heat energy (which keeps your regen up first thing).

My friend in San Diego routinely leaves his car plugged in overnight but it's done nearly immediately (he doesn't do a timed charge since he likes to charge his car with his solar generation), so the battery is nice and cold in the morning (it's 40-45 degrees) so he gets the limited regen message and half the dots are in place and has to get basically to work before he has regen. So that's anecdotal evidence of no heating from just being plugged in. (But again, no actual data.)

Sorry, it was just a little too far "in the weeds", which I'm sure you'll find that is the case with....a healthy majority of Tesla owners. (But...I don't have the actual data. )