Performance Upgrade Price Change!

[Roys3]

So who's paying for all these $5K Christmas presents?
I think the early enthusiastic European reservation holders (who are paying about $90K from what I hear).
I sure hope they don't see a sudden unannounced price dump once all the checks are out and the quarter is over...
If so, then this kind of crap (milk the early buyers!) is Tesla policy!
Fodder for another thread - or continuation of this one...

 

[SwedishSTIle]

Sure. I bought (took delivery) of my P3D+ 6 days prior to the price change. I got a $5000 check. Had I bought the - I would have paid what I have now paid and not had wheels, brakes, TRACK MODE etc. Should I in this hypothetical situation not have the same protection from sudden price changes just because I bought a cheaper car? One that is now worth substantially less?

Now extend that time to 7 days...20 days...50 days. Where do you draw the line.

My theory is that tesla never intended to sell the PUP. Elon tweeted that the Performance would do XY and Z in regards to its competition, and when his engineers came screaming STOP TWEETING into the room to tell him that no, it would not in fact do these things, they had to come up with a solution. That solution was bigger wheels and brakes. The incompatibility of the 20" wheels on tesla's site with the performance, the post machined pocket in the back of the performance wheels, the use of a third party brake package (brembo, which necessitated the funky wheel pocket) all point to Tesla scrambling to boost the trackability of the Performance in a very short amount of time to meet what were initially unsubstantiated and unobtainable claims from Mr. Musk.

By the time they started moving vehicles and realized the cosmic cluster they had created it was a bit too late. Then they hastily changed the price scheme and pissed all performance owners off creating another cosmic cluster.

Now + owners are grinning stupidly (myself included) and - owners are justifiably pissed. The minimum solution is to give everyone $5k back. Its not perfect but its better than the stupid solution they have come up with.

I cant prove any of this, but from an engineering perspective, it makes no sense that they intended to bolt those Brembos on the entire time with the headache of the modified wheels. It doesnt fit with their streamlining of components, it is different than any other wheel/brake interface I have ever seen, and as an engineer I would never design something from the ground up with such a custom, expensive, and problematic interface.

Does not make sense. Tesla F'ed up, and they should pay up for their mistake. No one is changing my mind, give the - owners what they are due!

 

[JeffK]

Some people had more than a promise from Elon, they had direct communication either verbal and written from Tesla employees (sales, delivery etc) stating they would be getting track mode. Now, that may have come from their reading of Elon's post, but it still constituted a verbal contract in most states.

I don't know this tweet seemed pretty official.
Tesla on Twitter

 

[Knightshade]

Sure. I bought (took delivery) of my P3D+ 6 days prior to the price change. I got a $5000 check. Had I bought the - I would have paid what I have now paid and not had wheels, brakes, TRACK MODE etc. Should I in this hypothetical situation not have the same protection from sudden price changes just because I bought a cheaper car?

Why would a price change on an option you did not buy. entitle you to anything at all?

(and the - is getting track mode, as mentioned numerous times now, including by the CEO of Tesla)

S
One that is now worth substantially less?

Again- there's 0 evidence of this.

On the contrary several folks have mentioned the possibility the P3D- will hold value better than the + does since it'll be A) the more rare/hard to find version and B) Doesn't saddle you with boat anchors and expensive-to-repair brakes that don't help outside of a track (yet aren't as good as aftermarket options for those who DO track).[/QUOTE]

 

[Knightshade]

I don't know this tweet seemed pretty official.
Tesla on Twitter

Musk directly contradicted that claim later though, so not so much.

He explicitly said all P models would get track mode.

Elon Musk on Twitter

This was in direct response to asking about the - cars that aren't getting a refund.

 

[JeffK]

Musk directly contradicted that claim later though, so not so much.

He explicitly said all P models would get track mode.

Elon Musk on Twitter

This was in direct response to asking about the - cars that aren't getting a refund.

While true, this is after they mentioned non-performance upgrade cars would still get it, but would need aftermarket upgrades.

Additionally, they removed the non-performance upgrades from the website so all new performance cars have the upgrade.

afaik I haven't heard of a non-performance upgrade car getting track mode yet.

 

[Knightshade]

While true, this is after they mentioned non-performance upgrade cars would still get it, but would need aftermarket upgrades.

Additionally, they removed the non-performance upgrades from the website so all new performance cars have the upgrade.

afaik I haven't heard of a non-performance upgrade car getting track mode yet.

Right- that's why Musks comment matters.

He was specifically asked if cars WITHOUT the + upgrade would get it, and he specifically and clearly said YES.

The best assumption as to why they haven't yet is it requires additional programming/tuning/testing for - cars rather than the existing code intended/tested/tuned for the + cars - and so that's an "in progress" thing.


As I've mentioned all thread- this to me is the hinge on which "do - owners deserve anything" swings on... if they get TM then no- because to most real performance minded people they ended up with the better version of the car and keep FUSC too. If they don't get TM and have no way to get it (free) then they absolutely got screwed and should get something for that.

 

[JeffK]

He was specifically asked if cars WITHOUT the + upgrade would get it, and he specifically and clearly said YES

Yes, they'll get it... after they get this
Tesla on Twitter

(so they didn't have to have originally purchased the + package)

 

[Knightshade]

Yes, they'll get it... after they get this
Tesla on Twitter

Again- no.

That tweet- again- predates the Musk one I cited.

Musk is specifically saying they'll get it WITHOUT adding the PUP to the car.

And it appears Tesla has abandoned the entire idea of offering an after-purchase PUP upgrade to - owners, as quite a few asked them about it when 5k-gate happened and universally they were told that wasn't happening.... (which makes sense- the cost would be kind of nuts to swap everything including axles/hubs/suspension/wheels/tires onto existing cars that already have those parts on em.. not to mention the service centers sure don't have ANY bandwidth to do it)

 

[JeffK]

Again- no.

That tweet- again- predates the Musk one I cited.

Musk is specifically saying they'll get it WITHOUT adding the PUP to the car.

And it appears Tesla has abandoned the entire idea of offering an after-purchase PUP upgrade to - owners, as quite a few asked them about it when 5k-gate happened and universally they were told that wasn't happening.... (which makes sense- the cost would be kind of nuts to swap everything including axles/hubs/suspension/wheels/tires onto existing cars that already have those parts on em.. not to mention the service centers sure don't have ANY bandwidth to do it)

But do we see any non-+ cars having track mode today?

 

[Knightshade]

But do we see any non-+ cars having track mode today?

No.

And I explained the most likely reason for that like 5 posts ago.

tl:dr version- It's not done yet.

 

[JeffK]

No.

And I explained the most likely reason for that like 5 posts ago.

tl:dr version- It's not done yet.

Hope you're right for those people. Besides the brakes, one wouldn't think there's that much difference between a Performance upgrade car with 18in winter tires with track mode and a non upgrade car.

 

[Vines]

The problem with all of this is the contradictions, and poor communication. Twitter is not a good forum for official communication despite what president *kittygrabber says. Why is Tesla refusing to make an official statement? Only reason I can think of is because they know we wont like the answer. Why would Elon use the word enable instead of update or give, when he said "We will enable Track Mode for all performance cars?" Other of Elons tweets have been misleading, no reason to believe this one won't be the same. He does tend to pop off sometimes.

How easy for them to state:
1. 5k back is/isn't available for all P3 models, or only in these circumstances.
2. Track mode will be free/paid for all Model 3 performance cars, without any new hardware/with the +brakes only. Those without the brakes need xxx brakes. We will enable track mode once XYZ are satisfied.
3. Going forward here is our 10/15/30 day price guarantee

 

[Knightshade]

The problem with all of this is the contradictions, and poor communication. Twitter is not a good forum for official communication despite what president *kittygrabber says. Why is Tesla refusing to make an official statement?

Elons tweets are official statements.

That's why he got in trouble with the SEC for making one.

. Why would Elon use the word enable instead of update or give, when he said "We will enable Track Mode for all performance cars?"

Because currently it's only enabled for P+ cars- and they need to make software changes to enable it on P- cars. Seems pretty clear actually.


Other of Elons tweets have been misleading, no reason to believe this one won't be the same. He does tend to pop off sometimes.

How easy for them to state:
1. 5k back is/isn't available for all P3 models, or only in these circumstances.

They have stated that numerous times when owners have emailed them about the issue.

Folks have posted those emails here numerous times.

2. Track mode will be free/paid for all Model 3 performance cars, without any new hardware/with the +brakes only.

Elon has said that too- was quoted as saying it less than 10 posts ago.

3. Going forward here is our 10/15/30 day price guarantee

You're not going to get any post-delivery price guarantee. That;s not their business model.

They adjust pricing all the time based on demand and production and other items- they typically adjust in customer favor if it changes between order and delivery- much more rare to do anything post delivery- as Elon said this specific case was too much too fast so they're doing it- but I expect they'll just shift their adjustments in the future to avoid this situation.

 

[Knightshade]

Hope you're right for those people. Besides the brakes, one wouldn't think there's that much difference between a Performance upgrade car with 18in winter tires with track mode and a non upgrade car.

That's exactly the relevant difference.

A lot of track mode is using the brakes as a faux-LSD in various ways- so significantly different brakes will require different code.[/B]

 

[Daniel in SD]

Sure. I bought (took delivery) of my P3D+ 6 days prior to the price change. I got a $5000 check. Had I bought the - I would have paid what I have now paid and not had wheels, brakes, TRACK MODE etc. Should I in this hypothetical situation not have the same protection from sudden price changes just because I bought a cheaper car? One that is now worth substantially less?

Now extend that time to 7 days...20 days...50 days. Where do you draw the line.

My theory is that tesla never intended to sell the PUP. Elon tweeted that the Performance would do XY and Z in regards to its competition, and when his engineers came screaming STOP TWEETING into the room to tell him that no, it would not in fact do these things, they had to come up with a solution. That solution was bigger wheels and brakes. The incompatibility of the 20" wheels on tesla's site with the performance, the post machined pocket in the back of the performance wheels, the use of a third party brake package (brembo, which necessitated the funky wheel pocket) all point to Tesla scrambling to boost the trackability of the Performance in a very short amount of time to meet what were initially unsubstantiated and unobtainable claims from Mr. Musk.

By the time they started moving vehicles and realized the cosmic cluster they had created it was a bit too late. Then they hastily changed the price scheme and pissed all performance owners off creating another cosmic cluster.

Now + owners are grinning stupidly (myself included) and - owners are justifiably pissed. The minimum solution is to give everyone $5k back. Its not perfect but its better than the stupid solution they have come up with.

I cant prove any of this, but from an engineering perspective, it makes no sense that they intended to bolt those Brembos on the entire time with the headache of the modified wheels. It doesnt fit with their streamlining of components, it is different than any other wheel/brake interface I have ever seen, and as an engineer I would never design something from the ground up with such a custom, expensive, and problematic interface.

Does not make sense. Tesla F'ed up, and they should pay up for their mistake. No one is changing my mind, give the - owners what they are due!

All Model 3s have Brembo brakes (I think Model S/X too). I also think that the original plan for the P was to make it a power and appearance package only like it is on the Model S/X. Otherwise why would Elon have said that it would be additional complexity to have red brakes? Someone should call up Tesla and try to order the P3D- off menu. Then you could make an argument that P3D- owners would get the current pricing just like P3D+ owners do. I doubt they'd do it for $5k less than the P3D. The difference in cost to Tesla is way smaller than that. I bet it's less than $1k different.

 

[tomas]

The model years on cars don't correspond to when they were first released. Sometimes 2019 models are released in March of 2018. It's not at all predictable exactly when manufacturers will drop prices.

We must live on different planets. Each maker has a cycle, and they are completely predictable by marque. Yes, "next model year" cars have been coming earlier and earlier. But those things are usually WIDELY known in the automotive press, and dealers have already received incentives to pass along to clear out prior model year cars. Fact is, the concept of model year changes - regardless of how early they are made available - is ingrained in the practices of manufacturers, dealers, buyers, and the automotive press.

Tesla has a different model. They drop new specs, options, pricing on buyers totally unannounced and whenever they either have new equipment or want to pull pricing or production simplification levers. In the case of the P3, within 60 days of initial volume delivery of the vehicle - which is not even remotely like the "annual" automotive model -- and up till now was also pretty brisk even for Tesla. Something Musk acknowledged as "too much, too soon".

Your theory that these practices (model year vs. real time) are the same is just flat wrong.

PS: the only reason Teslas have a model year at all is because insurance companies, licensing agencies, and taxing agencies don't know how to handle "version 2.5" designation vs. model year.

 

[Vines]

Elons tweets are official statements.

That may be true, but none of his tweets state directly what you want them to state, you have to make a mental leap to make it mean what you want it to mean. Compared to his tweet regarding funding secured was very clear, had context, and didn't require you to guess at all. (i.e. compare to your position that he must be talking about P3D- because of where his reply occurred in the thread. Maybe he only considers "Performance" cars to be those with the performance package, we are just guessing based on the official statement "We will enable track mode for all performance cars")

They have stated that numerous times when owners have emailed them about the issue.

Folks have posted those emails here numerous times.

Folks like MsJulie have also gotten emails that she is eligible for the 5k, despite her P3 Stealth. So individual emails do not equal a official statement, especially when the individual emails don't agree. Some emails say we are forwarded to the tweet team, some say FUSC off, some say you are eligible even though they probably aren't. Granted by the majority of emails we can guess the official position. Hence my request for clarity.

Because currently it's only enabled for P+ cars- and they need to make software changes to enable it on P- cars. Seems pretty clear actually.

Its not stated anywhere officially "Hold on P3D- folks, you will get track mode for free without any additional hardware after we finish developing the software. The previous tweet from @tesla that talked about buying an aftermarket package was unclear." So you're just guessing. His tweet definitely didn't mention that the "enable" of track mode was free, or that no hardware was needed. I am not going to read between the lines of what he wrote, just taking the tweet at face value. Too many assumptions already here.

I want Tesla to clarify those points officially. Clear communication would take less than 1 paragraph. Instead we have people inferring what tweets or individual emails mean, when they often are often contradictory, incomplete in the description, or without clear context.

 

[Daniel in SD]

We must live on different planets. Each maker has a cycle, and they are completely predictable by marque. Yes, "next model year" cars have been coming earlier and earlier. But those things are usually WIDELY known in the automotive press, and dealers have already received incentives to pass along to clear out prior model year cars. Fact is, the concept of model year changes - regardless of how early they are made available - is ingrained in the practices of manufacturers, dealers, buyers, and the automotive press.

Tesla has a different model. They drop new specs, options, pricing on buyers totally unannounced and whenever they either have new equipment or want to pull pricing or production simplification levers. In the case of the P3, within 60 days of initial volume delivery of the vehicle - which is not even remotely like the "annual" automotive model -- and up till now was also pretty brisk even for Tesla. Something Musk acknowledged as "too much, too soon".

Your theory that these practices (model year vs. real time) are the same is just flat wrong.

PS: the only reason Teslas have a model year at all is because insurance companies, licensing agencies, and taxing agencies don't know how to handle "version 2.5" designation vs. model year.

I agree that they change features way more than most auto makers. But they announce new models months in advance just like every other auto manufacturer. The Model 3 was announced years in advance! The AWD was also announced months in advance. They make all sorts of feature announcements in advance (FSD, tow hitch, air suspension, etc.).
Other car manufacturers change pricing way more often than Tesla does. The effective prices that the dealership pays changes constantly and the price that the consumer pays does as well.

 

[Perry]

He did.

100% of owners who actually paid 5k for the + pack are eligible to get that 5k refunded back in trade for FUSC

100% of owners who did not pay the 5k are not eligible to do so.

Can't get more consistent than that.

The 5K refund was a trade for FUSC not for the PUP. So it was not applied fairly since P3D- should also be able to trade FUSC for 5K.