It's not. Even CCS itself isn't a single "standard" but has two variants. And then there's CHAdeMO (although that's dying), GB/T, ChaoJi, and the megawatt charging system. And they'll probably cook up something else after the MCS. It's going to take at least one more generation of connectors and vehicles before we get any sort of shakedown and everyone starts using the same thing.
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Petition for Tesla to replace CCS as standard in US
- Thread starter Olle
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With Robotaxi around the corner I also wonder if it will be necessary to change TPC, no matter the signaling protocol, to work well in charging robots or if it can be used as is. Alternatively the transitional cars that are both manual and Robotaxi still need the charge port on the side and might not support robotized charing.
The dedicated Robotaxi should plug from underneath, as close to the battery as possible. Saves cable length both in the car and at the charger.
The dedicated Robotaxi should plug from underneath, as close to the battery as possible. Saves cable length both in the car and at the charger.
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We don't know what stipulations they've put in any negotiations over the TPC standard with Aptera or with other car manufacturers they're reported to have had some conversations with over the years (I think BMW has been mooted as a possibility a few times, including by Musk himself). Since it's not an open standard, there's not a site you can just go and see what the requirement is to pay for a copy of it. However, some indication may come from the terms of using any of Tesla's "open' patents: Why Other Car Companies Don't Use Tesla Superchargers
Basically, if you use any Tesla IP, Tesla says you can't sue them if they use any of your IP they choose. So if you got robotaxis working before Tesla, they'd be allowed within this agreement to lift your entire codebase without paying for it and start using it. However, while you get no IP rights against Tesla, the reverse is not true: you can't challenge any Tesla IP claims ever or work with anyone who does. Also, you also cannot sell an "imitation or knock-off" of any Tesla product, with what that means un-defined. Is the Lightning a "knock off cybertruck" if Elon wakes up one day in a bad mood at Ford? What about Lucid? The terms are unclear, but it's not like Elon is known for respecting a contract's intent and specific words and not pushing well beyond what the letter of contracts he signs would reasonably allow and daring courts to make him perform as specified instead. If the terms you get if you go as ABB or Siemens or VW to go to Tesla to use TPC are anything like that...you can see why your lawyers start screaming to run away and never look back.
Mockingbird
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Why Other Car Companies Don't Use Tesla Superchargers
Tesla says it will give its charging technology to any automaker who wants it. But the fine print makes this a terrible deal, even if it's free.
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Bru. In the US/NA market most (virtually all) EVs that have been released and will be released in the near future have CCS. End of story. It simply makes zero sense to arbitrarily make one vendors proprietary connector the standard. Even more so when ALL other OEMs vehicles in the region use another standard (CCS).
I agree. But given that CCS1 and J1772 both suck and TPC can't do 3 phase either, the only thing that makes sense is to dump everything that currently exists, including TPC, and create something way better. I believe this will happen eventually, just like it did with 4G after Verizon ditched Qualcomm and went with LTE.
So what’s interesting about CCS1 and CCS2 is that Tesla is part of the consortium that formed the standard. If you add that to Tesla’s All Our Patents Are Belong To You in 2014 they are essentially saying that even if you don’t take the patents, they are trying to help the rest of the EV industry set standards. Legacy automakers are interested in protecting their legacy ICE revenue even if it will dwindle over the next decade. There are also other companies that are trying to differentiate themselves by going against the BEV market and using hydrogen, methane, or other alternative fuels. It’s funny because the consortium essentially shoots itself in the foot by using CCS because it’s a combined standard, not a single standard. The connectors are way larger and bulkier than the Tesla connector and for CCS2, they are adapted for 3-phase power in addition to DC. So the standard is already split between EU and US. Most people won’t be flying their vehicle over so that’s not such an issue.
The real issue is the design of the stations and charging efficiency. Tesla can absorb the cost of installing CCS in addition to the TPC that they use easily. Tesla’s supercharger network is built with an AC to DC converter and smart signaling/charge management that is centralized. From what I’ve seen of the rest of the 3rd party chargers is that they have non-centralized AC to DC conversion and even if the 350kW supply is available (normally only 1 per area), the speeds max out at 270kW and typically around 250kW on a Porsche Taycan which has the technology. The Ionic 5 and EV6 typically go slower at around 230kW at the highest from real world charging at a 350kW supply. Keep in mind, this is direct DC charging with a maximum of 800 volts. Tesla’s Superchargers don’t use 800 volts and can still charge at 250kW with the TPC which will get upgraded to 300kW in the near future. The EA chargers are more expensive to implement that Tesla’s Superchargers so for more widespread adoption, shouldn’t you go with the cheaper and technologically advanced solution?
The real issue is the design of the stations and charging efficiency. Tesla can absorb the cost of installing CCS in addition to the TPC that they use easily. Tesla’s supercharger network is built with an AC to DC converter and smart signaling/charge management that is centralized. From what I’ve seen of the rest of the 3rd party chargers is that they have non-centralized AC to DC conversion and even if the 350kW supply is available (normally only 1 per area), the speeds max out at 270kW and typically around 250kW on a Porsche Taycan which has the technology. The Ionic 5 and EV6 typically go slower at around 230kW at the highest from real world charging at a 350kW supply. Keep in mind, this is direct DC charging with a maximum of 800 volts. Tesla’s Superchargers don’t use 800 volts and can still charge at 250kW with the TPC which will get upgraded to 300kW in the near future. The EA chargers are more expensive to implement that Tesla’s Superchargers so for more widespread adoption, shouldn’t you go with the cheaper and technologically advanced solution?
Why would you want three phase connecor in the US where most homes are one phase? Or do you mean there should be a global connector standard? Like I wrote earlier, there already is such a connector , the Mennekes Type 2, which handles 3 phase, Tesla supercharging and it already connects to all European EVs.
Tesla supercharging is however not part of the standard but something Tesla implemented as a proprietary function within the standard physical layout.
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The fact that Tesla was part of the consortium doesn’t mean that they had veto rights against bad design decisions.
Very true. Most likely, they are along for the ride. I do wonder if Tesla would adopt CCS1 for the US market for the vehicles or if they will keep their TPC.
Based on this article, it seems like they plan on an adapter "magic dock". Here's how Tesla plans to allow other EVs to plug in at North American Superchargers - Magic Dock
A lot of charging should be done at offices during the day, which are generally wired for 3 phase and only get 208V if 2 phase is used.
Mennekes handles 3 phase but not DC, and CCS2 is an ugly kludge. We need a connector that does megawatt DC charging plus 3 phase with 4 power pins: 2 larger pins for DC+/DC- and L1/L2 depending on the charging mode, and 2 smaller pins for L3 and N that are used for 3 phase only.
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