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Phantom Braking getting worse - any ideas on how to stop it?
- Thread starter Ev_Rider
- Start date
Here's the diagram of Tesla's camera coverage. You'll notice that there is no element of stereo vision, which would require two cameras spaced apart on the car, with matching fields of view. The goal, obviously, is to see the same objects from two distinct viewpoints. The closest the car gets is to have a bunch of forward cameras at the same location with different fields of view used for different distances.
I really don't get a chance to use AP that much, I just hear so much about PB on Teslas and not on other cars. I still believe that other manufacturers version of AP are at least as good now for highway driving. Frankly, my Wife's ID4's "AP" is a lot less stressful to use and I think I would prefer it on long trips to my Tesla and based on everything I've read in this thread and seen on youtube I just would be very careful recommending a Tesla to someone that uses cruise control a lot.
As far as FSDb being more capable, I'm just not sure. Technically, yes, it can do more but I can't use it when there's traffic around unless it a straight route with no stop signs (man, it's terrible at stop signs). It handles stop lights great though. I take it out at night a couple of times a week just to test it out with no traffic and it's fun and impressive but it's not ready for traffic driving at all unless you're willing to let other drivers look out for you.
It just concerns me that Tesla seemingly still has more problems with PB than other cars and has had the problem for years -- it doesn't seem like they're going to be able to fix it. I hope you're right, though, and it's actually really good and everyone in this thread are just edge cases. I really like my Tesla, I'm jut glad I don't have to rely on AP.
clydeiii
Member
In my experience it's just fine with stop signs and most other traffic signals. Does it mess up? Yeah. I know where that is in my daily commute and intervene as required. It's easy.
My theory re: PB is this. Most other automakers have a AP-like feature but don't really advertise/explain how to use it very well, so no one ends up using it, and thus no one complains about it. (Also my guess is if we visited the TMC-for-VW forums, you'd see similar threads there about PBs, so who knows.) Another factor is that PBs are actually a good thing, because they mean that when there's a legitimate reason to brake, the car will. A car that doesn't PB might not brake at the most critical time. So PBs might be a "feature", not a bug.
clydeiii
Member
I would love to see some youtubers record their ID4 "AP" experiences...
Also in the comments says "how do I enable this" and the video creator replies saying it only works on premapped roads.
So yeah, ok this tech looks great but Tesla's tech is significantly more advanced since they don't require premapped roads and this feature from VW is only on 2023 cars, whereas AP dates back to 2018 in its current form, with FSDb even more advanced. So VW is at least 5 years behind?
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Well - I do not know of any brand that offers FUNCTIONAL AP driving that is remotely in Tesla's league
Sure - my wife won't use AP in our M3P because she's scared of it. Of course she never used the standard old cruise control on any of her cars before so it is what it is
I drive my MYP from work and can engage the AP any time, virtually anywhere to take away the boring basic stop and go driving.
While other brands can do adaptive cruise well, none can do line keep the way tesla does.
Sure - my wife won't use AP in our M3P because she's scared of it. Of course she never used the standard old cruise control on any of her cars before so it is what it is
I drive my MYP from work and can engage the AP any time, virtually anywhere to take away the boring basic stop and go driving.
While other brands can do adaptive cruise well, none can do line keep the way tesla does.
clydeiii
Member
Happy to be proven wrong by AFAIK Tesla is using the multiple front-facing cameras to create a 3D space in which they can estimate depth, exactly like our eyes allow us to do.Here's the diagram of Tesla's camera coverage. You'll notice that there is no element of stereo vision, which would require two cameras spaced apart on the car, with matching fields of view. The goal, obviously, is to see the same objects from two distinct viewpoints. The closest the car gets is to have a bunch of forward cameras at the same location with different fields of view used for different distances.
They do create a 3D volumetric representation of the space around the car. That's the occupancy network. However, they create that representation in all directions around the car by using video from the cameras. Here's the AI Day 2022 presentation about occupancy networks. Instead of stereo cameras, they rely on the movement of the car to get views of any given object from different positions and different times. That provides the parallax that they need to judge distances. It's the same thing that gamers do to judge distances; more apparent movement is closer, less is farther. Obviously, this applies to much more than gaming
As I recall, they worked this whole thing up in conjunction with LIDAR to provide reinforcement data. Then they dropped the LIDAR after the network had been trained.
I also have a honda and a ford with TACC and neither PBs like the Tesla.
Maybe you aren't understanding what stereo vision is.
There's a single camera facing forward in the rear view mirror assembly. That is monocular vision. It doesn't matter that Tesla is trying to artificially create a 3D vector space using all of the cameras. That's still BS object recognition / inference, not actual stereo vision. Stereo vision uses two camera side by side facing forward and matches up blocks of pixels to determine if something is close or far. It doesn't bother trying to identify what the object is as that is not as important as figuring out if it's going to hit you or not.
This monocular, inferenced based vision is why Tesla has had these odd accidents where it runs into the side of semi trucks and other objects simply because it failed to "identify" them. If it was using radar or stereo vision it would see that it's an object coming at it (regardless of being able to identify it or not) and slow down and stop. Doesn't matter what the object is. If you tried to drive with one eye closed you would be simulating Tesla vision.
KArnold
Active Member
Interesting. But even with one eye shut I can still gauge close or far (and much else - velocity, trajectory, etc.). I'd say AI will soon surpass my abilities in perception but apparently not yet in an FSD environment.
In my uneducated opinion stereo v. mono vision may not be that important to the future of FSD. No?
clydeiii
Member
Which makes you wonder, would it crash under certain circumstances because it isn't paying "enough attention"..?
clydeiii
Member
Confused...if I drive with one eye closed I will still not run into trucks. Surely it was stereo vs mono that caused the running into trucks, but rather the AI didn't understand what to do with the data presented to it moments before the accident, no?
People who are blind in one eye are permitted to drive in all states.
This prospective study done in humans suggests that it is not clear that, at least in older drivers, monocular vision results in more frequent accidents. Rather, it seems that it is clarity, acuity, glare, or mismatch between eyes (all processing issues) that seems to have a more profound effect. Whether this translates to AI and automobiles could be argued.
This prospective study done in humans suggests that it is not clear that, at least in older drivers, monocular vision results in more frequent accidents. Rather, it seems that it is clarity, acuity, glare, or mismatch between eyes (all processing issues) that seems to have a more profound effect. Whether this translates to AI and automobiles could be argued.
Haven't watched the video yet , but it's just basic TAC with lane centering and from my experience it's super smooth and it works on every road I've tried it on. In fact it worked a lot better than my MY on the highway for a while because the MY used to drift over to exit lanes and then jerk back while the ID4 stayed in the correct position on the same road. A recent update on the MY has seemingly fixed this issue which is cool as it was rather disappointing that I couldn't even us AP on my mostly straight interstate without it messing up. Another plus for the ID4 is the captivate steering wheel that you just have to touch instead of using torque to indicate you're paying attention, though I've learned how to torque the steering wheel pretty effectively on the Tesla when I don't feel like either messing with the volume controls or cruise control speed to get rid of the nag.
I will be curious to watch the video after work in case I'm missing something here. I will say, it's confusing to turn the ID4's system on and off. Maybe it's because I don't drive it much, but I really couldn't explain to my wife how to use it at this point.
Despite all of this I don't want to give the impression that I like the ID4 better than the MY. I enjoy driving the MY much more which is the important thing for me and would be happy to be convinced that Tesla's AP is actually great.
Who knows what the future holds. But right now, Tesla obviously has a problem using mono vision to judge distance. How long will it take to fix, or is it even possible to fix with the hardware that is currently installed? I don't get a warm and fuzzy when I look at the history of Elon's claims: Big Bets and Broken Promises: A Timeline of Tesla's Self-Driving Aspirations - Consumer Reports
clydeiii
Member
I say "obviously" because I never had excessive PB issues before the radar was disabled on my car.
I hope people are tapping the voice command button and stating "Bug Report Phantom Braking" each time a PB event occurs. I also hope people report this defect to their associated countries safety agency. In Canada it is:
Report a potential safety defect of vehicles, tires and child car seats
Find out what can be reported as a safety defect, report possible safety defects, find information for vehicle fuel consumption and emissions concerns
Hopefully Tesla will fix the problem without requiring a lawsuit or government agency to light a fire under their butt. Documenting the issue can only help all possibilities.
Happens to me a lot in Texas in my 23 M3P. Ridiculous that Tesla cannot figure this out. We have a Volvo XC90 and Nissan Rogue that has adaptive cruise control, and this never happens. It would be nice if Tesla enabled a straight up cruise control setting to avoid this. As it stands now, it’s pretty useless because I always need to have my right foot near the accelerator and ready to spring into action when phantom braking hits, which defeats the whole purpose of a cruise control.
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