Phantom Braking

[enemji]

The only way I can see being able to get an idea of the severity of the braking event is if Tesla added either a g-meter or a mph readout to the dashcam.

Video itself doesn't really convey it.

Hand a pendulum from the rear view mirror and show how hard it swings.

 

[sleepydoc]

Hand a pendulum from the rear view mirror and show how hard it swings.

Or have a camera on the passengers and see how far they sway to and fro.

I have no idea how many "G's" would be considered perceptible, comfortable or acceptable. I suspect there would be a fair degree of person to person variation.

Has anyone measured how much deceleration one gets from regenerative braking? I would classify full regenerative braking as 'moderate.' (It's certainly enough that if you take your foot off the accelerator for a second and put it back on every few minutes that it would annoy people in the car.)

 

[Knightshade]

Has anyone measured how much deceleration one gets from regenerative braking?

Yes. It's 0.2g in normal use. For performance models with track mode it can apparently be increased to 0.3g.

Hence pointing out the thread where someone measured their "phantom braking" and found it was equal to or less than just normal regen.

 

[AndreP]

So...on most cars using adaptive cruise control your foot has to hover over the brake..but on a Tesla your foot hovers over the accelerator...is that fair?

Is that a thing? I have adaptive cruise on a used 2014 Cadillac that has zero issues maintaining distance and speed, but that’s my individual experience.

It’s actually too seamless, I’ll end up behind someone doing 10 below the limit and not even realize that I’m going 20 too slow then end up passing them in minor frustration. The system is too good at gradually slowing, to the point where I don’t even notice I’m going too slow.

 

[sleepydoc]

Oh - except for one thing. Computers will be able to drive safely if there are only other computers driving - humans not allowed - driving or walking or otherwise being in the same areas with autonomous cars. This is what i constantly warn about. Tesla has made it clear that humans driving manually is undesirable. At some point in the future they will actively lobby to exclude humans from driving - limited areas at first, with gradual expansion. Could be soon, or could be far away in the future. That's the only way to achieve true autonomous driving.

I have to disagree with this. Anyone who’s driven through a real winter knows that true autonomous driving will not happen in the foreseeable future. I can’t even use cruise control for 3-4 days after a snow storm. When it’s -40º outside and there’s black ice on the roads humans have a difficult time. How’s the computer going to do? And how about when it’s snowing and the cameras get obscured - I guess we just stop in the middle of the road until the sun comes out?

 

[sleepydoc]

Is that a thing? I have adaptive cruise on a used 2014 Cadillac that has zero issues
maintaining distance and speed, but that’s my individual experience.

It’s actually too seamless, I’ll end up behind someone doing 10 below the limit and not even realize that I’m going 20 too slow then end up passing them in minor frustration. The system is too good at gradually slowing, to the point where I don’t even notice I’m going too slow.

Yes - that’s the experience I’ve had with every other car I’ve driven and the experience of every person I’ve talked to, hence my disgust with Tesla’s poor implementation.

 

[AndreP]

Yes - that’s the experience I’ve had with every other car I’ve driven and the experience of every person I’ve talked to, hence my disgust with Tesla’s poor implementation.

Some of these comments make me wonder if Tesla is all the commenters have experienced, which would be understandable because vehicles are generally big long-term purchases.

But perspective is a great thing and there is zero reason to limit yourself to one brand if only to have a basis for comparison, and every single manufacturer approaches things differently

 

[RSpanner]

I have always enjoyed using cruise control on long trips. Tried it yesterday ( new Model 3 /9/4/2021)for about the 4 th time. Every time on the Interstate it does the phantom brake Eye Opener, with a instantly very pissed-off driver behind. I keep thinking it won't happen any more..very depressing besides dangerous. No. I am not thinking of an Audi e-tron..ever.

 

[Gilliland]

It’s actually too seamless, I’ll end up behind someone doing 10 below the limit and not even realize that I’m going 20 too slow then end up passing them in minor frustration. The system is too good at gradually slowing, to the point where I don’t even notice I’m going too slow.

Yes, that happened to me very often in my Mazda. Very common experience. You suddenly realize that you've been driving 65 in a 70 zone for the last ten minutes. Score one for Tesla NOA - at least it will suggest changing lanes to get around the slower car.

 

[sleepydoc]

I also Use cruise control a lot at lower speeds in city driving. I find I’m much less likely to speed, especially in the Tesla which has a fairly sensitive accelerator. Fortunately, the phantom braking is relatively less of an issue in town for a variety of reasons.

 

[hatch]

I have to disagree with this. Anyone who’s driven through a real winter knows that true autonomous driving will not happen in the foreseeable future. I can’t even use cruise control for 3-4 days after a snow storm. When it’s -40º outside and there’s black ice on the roads humans have a difficult time. How’s the computer going to do? And how about when it’s snowing and the cameras get obscured - I guess we just stop in the middle of the road until the sun comes out?

Yeah you're right there. The true autonomous driving is only going to be accomplished on controlled roads in ideal conditions with humans out of the way. It won't stop them from claiming true FSD has been achieved 100%.

 

[AndreP]

Yes, that happened to me very often in my Mazda. Very common experience. You suddenly realize that you've been driving 65 in a 70 zone for the last ten minutes. Score one for Tesla NOA - at least it will suggest changing lanes to get around the slower car.

Definitely, that is a big win

Goes to show how difficult it is to nail these things and create functions that truly add value to your regular driving task, because this behavior without a lane change function makes me less inclined to use it -- at least it's obvious I need to pass someone when using regular dumb cruise control.

 

[sleepydoc]

Definitely, that is a big win

Goes to show how difficult it is to nail these things and create functions that truly add value to your regular driving task, because this behavior without a lane change function makes me less inclined to use it -- at least it's obvious I need to pass someone when using regular dumb cruise control.

Well, you should be paying attention, right?

Maybe that’s the purpose of all the phantom braking in Teslas - to encourage people to pass you!

I just completed a camera recalibration So we’ll see if that helps. Man was it annoying, though - that last 1% takes forever! It’s like when you’re updating the OS on your computer and it goes really fast until the end and makes you think it will be done, then just sits there waiting..waiting…waiting… I’m pretty sure there’s someone spying through my web cam laughing as I’m waiting for it to finish, and then telling it to finish as soon as I leave!

 

[AndreP]

Well, you should be paying attention, right?

Maybe that’s the purpose of all the phantom braking in Teslas - to encourage people to pass you!

I just completed a camera recalibration So we’ll see if that helps. Man was it annoying, though - that last 1% takes forever! It’s like when you’re updating the OS on your computer and it goes really fast until the end and makes you think it will be done, then just sits there waiting..waiting…waiting… I’m pretty sure there’s someone spying through my web cam laughing as I’m waiting for it to finish, and then telling it to finish as soon as I leave!

Hahaha

I definitely try to stay very cognizant of drifting attention and anything that enables it. I would say the Lane Keeping in my Ford truck is also an enabler of slightly checking out and potentially leading to riskier behaviour, that’s a small part of why I’d never pay for it.

Right now there is truly no substitute for an attentive driver

 

[sleepydoc]

Hahaha

I definitely try to stay very cognizant of drifting attention and anything that enables it. I would say the Lane Keeping in my Ford truck is also an enabler of slightly checking out and potentially leading to riskier behaviour, that’s a small part of why I’d never pay for it.

Right now there is truly no substitute for an attentive driver

Very true. In many ways it’s harder to stay focused when you have less to do which as you say is a risk with driver assist features.

Autopilot right now isn’t too bad - it makes enough mistakes that you don‘t drift off too bad and FSD will get your heart rate up about every 3-4 minutes on a good day. As they systems progress I can definitely see there being issues, though. Say FSD was *almost* perfect and only made a mistake every 30-60 minutes. Would people be paying enough attention to catch it?

 

[enemji]

Or have a camera on the passengers and see how far they sway to and fro.

No. The pendulum is the scientific minimum bar.

 

[enemji]

I have to disagree with this. Anyone who’s driven through a real winter knows that true autonomous driving will not happen in the foreseeable future. I can’t even use cruise control for 3-4 days after a snow storm. When it’s -40º outside and there’s black ice on the roads humans have a difficult time. How’s the computer going to do? And how about when it’s snowing and the cameras get obscured - I guess we just stop in the middle of the road until the sun comes out?

Who needs lanes & medians? At that point the car needs to be smart enough to play frogger and make sure not to hit or be hit by someone else.

 

[Dewg]

I have to disagree with this. Anyone who’s driven through a real winter knows that true autonomous driving will not happen in the foreseeable future. I can’t even use cruise control for 3-4 days after a snow storm. When it’s -40º outside and there’s black ice on the roads humans have a difficult time. How’s the computer going to do? And how about when it’s snowing and the cameras get obscured - I guess we just stop in the middle of the road until the sun comes out?

May I ask why?

Why do people think that computers with software can't handle these situations like a human can? Humans have two HD cameras (eyes) on a swivel mount (neck), which can only swivel about 90 degrees left and right, and about 45 degrees up and down. We have a brain, which is just a biological computer that accepts sensory input (eyes, ears, nose, etc.), processes that data (pattern recognition), accesses historical databases (memory), and uses decision trees based on those databases to determine an outcome. BTW, the human brain has about a 120ms lag - which should totally freak you out when you think about it - everything you see and think is happening RIGHT NOW, actually happened 120ms in the past. But that's another discussion.

Since we can build computers and processors that can read sensory data much faster than we can (human eyesight is roughly 60fps), access databases much faster than we can, with much more accuracy, we should be able to handle anything a human can handle. We've proven that computers have a massively faster reaction time versus humans. While it takes you 120ms to process that child's bouncing ball coming into the street, and then your personal reaction time to decide how to handle it (swerve, slam on the breaks, etc.), a computer can see that ball and react 10x faster, applying the breaks or turning the wheel.

Most cars have traction-control, which senses when the car is slipping, as in your example of black ice, and attempts to alter power from wheel to wheel to regain control. Many times this happens before we even know what's going on - for example in hydroplaning. You hit a puddle of water and hydroplane, but the car reacts and maintains control - you feel an odd sensation of the car changing direction, or vibrating as it pumps the breaks dozens of times per second.
And snow covering the cameras? Why can't the windshield wipers automatically engage and clear the view for the cameras? If the cameras (which are inside the car) can't see the road, it's very likely your human cameras can't see the road either. What would you do if you couldn't see the road? Slow down as safely as you thought possible and possibly even stop the car - turning on your hazards? Why can't the computer in the car do the same thing? It attempts to clear the windshield, and if it can't then it slows down the car, turning on the hazards, and comes to a stop.

Oh, and on top of all that, we as humans do all our driving with 2 cameras. Our Tesla's have 8 cameras that can see all around it. We have to check our blind spot by turning our heads, which means we no longer can see what's ahead of us. The Tesla can see the blind spot and what's ahead of it, and what's behind it at the same time.

 

[Altes]

In my 2017 S, phantom braking is a HUGE problem since the radar was dropped and I enrolled in the FSD Beta program. Phantom braking was a rare event before going to FSD Beta. Now I can't use CC or FSD at night at all because the car freaks out every time a car's headlights appear on the road. During the day time the phantom braking is only an occasional annoyance, perhaps only happening every 1/2 hr or so on road trips. At night though, it's every 30 seconds.

Neither the VW Atlas nor the Toyota Camry that I rented last month had any issues dealing with traffic in either daylight or at night. Tesla needs to come clean and admit they have a MAJOR software bug.

SO I hear conflicting stories on cars originally equipped w radar: IS it now disabled or just newer cars have no radar and cars with radar still get to use it

 

[Dewg]

SO I hear conflicting stories on cars originally equipped w radar: IS it now disabled or just newer cars have no radar and cars with radar still get to use it

Radar data is ignored while the FSD Beta stack is enabled (city driving). When the car reverts to the NOA stack (on freeways), radar data is used.