Phantom braking

[pdk42]

Yeah, yeah - another thread on this...

I recently replaced my 2019 Model 3 with a new Model Y. I never had huge issues with phantom braking on the old car, but jeez, this new Y is terrible! Maybe it's the loss of USS, or radar (but I thought this was all disabled anyhow back when all-vision AP was introduced) - but whatever it is, this Y is really not coping as well as the old 3.

On top of that, the new car seems way more pernickety using the cabin camera to scold me if I don't keep my eyes facing forward.

I'm getting to the point where using AP is really more trouble than it's worth.

 

[MrBadger]

A useful experience from a reliable long term owner even if it’s not what @pdk42 wanted.

A regression like this, on the latest spec vehicle really highlights the inconsistency of some features between vehicles. It’s a big problem that needs to have the root cause found. Hopefully Tesla can investigate and not fob off things as being normal. I am also assuming that same settings are being used between previous and new?

Could cabin camera differences be explained though by having IR emitters to improve night vision? Or was it same in daylight too?

 

[pb4012]

I’ve just had the new model 3 highland delivered and did my first long journey in an EV. I had to actively seek out chats about this because the car slammed on its brakes by creating a 40mph speed target on three separate occasions for no reason whatsover. I was in the left lane of the motorway at 70mph and had no vehicles in front of me at any point and on two of the occasions I didn’t even have anyone to my side either. What on earth is going on? This could have easily caused an accident and needs to be fixed! A quick fix for me at the moment would be to just allow the option to remove adaptive cruise control altogether.

 

[Zilla91]

This could have easily caused an accident and needs to be fixed!

It’s been like this for years, it’s never getting fixed. You’ll just need to do what most of us do and keep your foot hovered over the accelerator pedal when on Autopilot

 

[Pagemakers]

It’s been like this for years, it’s never getting fixed. You’ll just need to do what most of us do and keep your foot hovered over the accelerator pedal when on Autopilot

Agreed. Regression for me, not progression.

 

[Pagemakers]

A quick fix for me at the moment would be to just allow the option to remove adaptive cruise control altogether.

You could do that by setting TACC to say 30mph and then just override it with your foot on the accelerator. Crazy I know but it would work.

 

[Fursty Ferret]

Left lane on a smart motorway with no hard shoulder, perchance? The logic for speed control sometimes gets quite upset here as it thinks you're leaving the motorway. On a quiet drive it's easier to just stick in lane 2 and move over if you see someone approaching from behind. Legally dubious, but safer anyway in my opinion if there's no hard shoulder.

 

[yessuz]

You could do that by setting TACC to say 30mph and then just override it with your foot on the accelerator. Crazy I know but it would work.

this makes no sense.. at all.

 

[Pagemakers]

this makes no sense.. at all.

I didn’t say it makes sense but it gives the poster what he wants. Auto-steer and manual transmission with no phantom braking.

 

[bearscat]

The problem continues to other models through 2023.

Yes. My 2023 Model 3 (current mileage 7,000) suddenly went into emergency braking on May 15, 2024 while in cruise mode at 72 mph. Fortunately, I do not use any of the AutoPilot stuff (do not trust it after trying for a few minutes) and was able to retain control. Also, fortunately, traffic was light and no one was tailgating me, although I am sure some folks to the rear had to slow down quickly. Reported to Tesla. Told to report to dealer. Did so. Dealer without looking at the vehicle indicated it did not find anything unusual in the telemetry, some glips are to be expected, and driver is responsible for retaining control. Dealer thereupon cancelled the appointment. I was shocked and was able to download the telemetry. None existed for the approximate time periods during which the incident occurred. Wierd.

According to articles I dug up, drivers have reported more than 400,000 instances of phantom breaking to NHTSA. It is investigating approximately 700 plus reports from Tesla owners.

We need a class action suit or more proactive NHTSA. Know of any ongoing suits that would include 2023 and subsequent year models?

 

[Pagemakers]

Get used to it. It will get fixed with the wipers - ie never.

 

[Adopado]

The problem continues to other models through 2023.

Yes. My 2023 Model 3 (current mileage 7,000) suddenly went into emergency braking on May 15, 2024 while in cruise mode at 72 mph. Fortunately, I do not use any of the AutoPilot stuff (do not trust it after trying for a few minutes) and was able to retain control. Also, fortunately, traffic was light and no one was tailgating me, although I am sure some folks to the rear had to slow down quickly. Reported to Tesla. Told to report to dealer. Did so. Dealer without looking at the vehicle indicated it did not find anything unusual in the telemetry, some glips are to be expected, and driver is responsible for retaining control. Dealer thereupon cancelled the appointment. I was shocked and was able to download the telemetry. None existed for the approximate time periods during which the incident occurred. Wierd.

According to articles I dug up, drivers have reported more than 400,000 instances of phantom breaking to NHTSA. It is investigating approximately 700 plus reports from Tesla owners.

We need a class action suit or more proactive NHTSA. Know of any ongoing suits that would include 2023 and subsequent year models?

I suggest you keep a dashcam recording of any incident like this. Of course you need to remember to actively press the record button (or press the horn if that setting is active).

 

[yessuz]

Were you driving on motorway?

Always check if there is some sort of service road or other type of the road nearby

I noticed that on some cases car reports location like 10-20 meters away from actual location.

Meaning that near by road has speed limit of 50 mph (or less) and car "suddenly realizes" that it is on 50 mph road and not 70 mph - then it will emergency break

 

[KennethS]

Whilst not something we have yet experienced (we very rarely use any of the AP stuff), that sounds terrifying. Just so I know what to expect, is it true "emergency braking"? To me that is full on, triggering ABS type of braking. Or is it a rapid deceleration from say 70MPH to 50MPH? Neither is acceptable but I do think one is far more dangerous than the other.

 

[Pagemakers]

Can be both and for no reason. No adjacent roads, bridges or even other cars at times.

 

[yessuz]

Whilst not something we have yet experienced (we very rarely use any of the AP stuff), that sounds terrifying. Just so I know what to expect, is it true "emergency braking"? To me that is full on, triggering ABS type of braking. Or is it a rapid deceleration from say 70MPH to 50MPH? Neither is acceptable but I do think one is far more dangerous than the other.

rapid deceleration in my case

I caught it few times, that SatNav displays that I am on the motorway, motorway speed but car is somewhat off-set from the road displayed on the map. then suddenly, car sees that it is on the B road with speed limit of 50 mph and it decelerates to match the speed limit (because speed limit on Single carriage road is enforced by TACC and AP and actually ignored on motorway)

Like in this video - you would notice that once car is on "slip road" (although I am not!) it reduces max speed to 50

Watch PXL_20240421_090330926 | Streamable

Watch "PXL_20240421_090330926" on Streamable.

streamable.com

 

[KennethS]

rapid deceleration in my case

I caught it few times, that SatNav displays that I am on the motorway, motorway speed but car is somewhat off-set from the road displayed on the map. then suddenly, car sees that it is on the B road with speed limit of 50 mph and it decelerates to match the speed limit (because speed limit on Single carriage road is enforced by TACC and AP and actually ignored on motorway)

That could very well be the cause. It doesn't make it any more acceptable but I suppose knowing what might trigger it could help in anticipating scenarios when it may happen. Skittishness around cars in adjoining lanes seems to be another one from my reading here. Tesla must work to make this a vanishingly rare occurrence to have any hope that the majority of people will have confidence to use (and pay for!) the system. Putting aside having regulators approve its use.

 

[yessuz]

That could very well be the cause. It doesn't make it any more acceptable but I suppose knowing what might trigger it could help in anticipating scenarios when it may happen. Skittishness around cars in adjoining lanes seems to be another one from my reading here. Tesla must work to make this a vanishingly rare occurrence to have any hope that the majority of people will have confidence to use (and pay for!) the system. Putting aside having regulators approve its use.

check my comment above. I updated it and included a video

this actually triggered "replacement of GPS hardware" which I am still waiting to happen next week

 

[KennethS]

That is pretty definitive. Our GPS is generally pretty good but I can't say I've never seen it wander to a nearby roadway sometimes. Be interested to hear if whatever fix Tesla does improves yours.

 

[bearscat]

Thanks for the comments. At the time I was not near any intersections or other features. Just flat highway. Did not have the dashcam on. Would be hard to turn it on when the AEB acts up. Too busy with the car. However, might investigate whether I can just keep it on. Still surprised that the telemetry did not show anything during the incident (or even for the day preceding the event, since it was very active on the day before and after with routine checks. Glitch maybe in the telemetry?

In the interim, I will just keep my foot near the accelerator. I think that is what I instinctively used to stop the AEB. If that does not work, will be close to the manual brake. Will also turn off the AEB for any periods during which I will be on the Highway for any time periods. Could cause problems if being tailgated or if someone cuts right in front of me.