Has Basic Autopilot improved (and phantom braking decreased) since radar was removed? (About to buy!)

[RDoc]

The ongoing discussions of phantom braking makes me really disappointed in Tesla and reluctant to buy a new one.

Our 2015 Tesla S with the original, non-Telsa, AP practically never experiences phantom braking, less than once per year, and we use AP all the time. Perhaps we're just lucky, but I never heard much discussion of phantom braking, or even the phrase, before Tesla started doing their own software.

 

[azred]

We have a 2018 Model 3 with radar hardware that was disabled in Fall 2021. We also have a 2022 Model 3 without radar hardware. Phantom braking happened infrequently before with radar, and it happens on vision-only infrequently as well. It’s never been that big of a deal for us. Just like many different things about Teslas, it was a shock to initially experience but eventually learned to understand and predict the car’s behavior better.

Phantom braking happens enough to cause me to seldom use autopilot features with passengers. I compare it to minor, sudden air turbulence on an airplane. Pilots don’t even flinch but many passengers hate it. Same deal with infrequent phantom braking. It usually doesn’t bother me when driving but my wife hates it. It’s a major reason she won’t use autopilot when she is driving.

My 2016 S and 2018 3 probably have about the same number of occurrences and both seem better than a few years ago. Of course we don’t know how much of any improvement is due to hardware vs software.

 

[sandman1330]

If I drive like Autopilot, I would never pass an advanced driver course.

LOL, FSDb wouldn't even pass a basic drivers test, let alone advanced!

 

[Dewg]

LOL, FSDb wouldn't even pass a basic drivers test, let alone advanced!

Mine would pass just fine. The DMV driving test is pretty basic, and Beta handles them fine for me.

Your drive test will last about 20 minutes. The test consists of basic actions you will encounter while driving, such as:

• Left and right turns
• Stops at controlled/uncontrolled intersections
• Lane change
• Driving in regular street traffic
• Driving on the freeway (if required)

 

[SeminoleFSU]

I personally think the lack of radar makes the car less adept at calculating the distances of cars immediately in front of it. For example, stop and go traffic on the highway with AP.... It got noticeably more jerky and jarring after they stopped using the radar. It's almost like the car freaks out and thinks it's closing on the vehicle in front too fast and slams on brakes. Then as the vehicle in front starts to move forward on the HWY, it accelerates very quickly to keep pace and often has to slam on brakes again because traffic is only lurching forward a bit. I've noticed setting the following distance to something higher than minimum (e.g. 3 or more since 2 is now the minimum) helps a little with this issue but overall I'm still shocked that this most basic functionality is not comfortable in the Tesla when it is on so many other manufacturers that just offer basic traffic aware cruise functionality. The last few updates have improved it some but it still happens way too often. It's especially jarring for passengers who are not expecting it. To be fair, overall it's still really nice if traffic is flowing... it's just the stop and go or sudden stop scenarios (accident or heavy traffic) where it gets annoying

 

[sandman1330]

Mine would pass just fine. The DMV driving test is pretty basic, and Beta handles them fine for me.

And to be fair, FSDb is designed for Southern California, so your experiences are likely better than mine.

It tried to pull me in front of a car doing 110km/h today in a right turn at a T intersection. Had to disengage to prevent a major accident.

 

[Dewg]

And to be fair, FSDb is designed for Southern California, so your experiences are likely better than mine.

It tried to pull me in front of a car doing 110km/h today in a right turn at a T intersection. Had to disengage to prevent a major accident.

Lucky me

 

[1speed]

I think a lot of phantom braking now is just your auto-pilot adjusting very quickly to a speed limit change. For example you are on a road with with 55 as the speed limit, and you normally have your auto-pilot to go 5 over. But in this area, everybody drives 80, so you manually bump up speed limit to say 80. So now you are going 25 over the speed limit. When the speed limit drops from 55 to 45, your car suddenly want to drop in speed by 30 mph and rapidly slows down to 50 (b/c of the +5 setting). I see this a lot on interstates in congested areas where everyone drives way over the speed limit.

 

[RichardL]

I just completed a 2500 mile trip to Seattle and back.

The PB is far worse than in all my previous cars. As stated earlier the main reason was on undulating roads where the brow caused a void - happened many times and I had to ride the go pedal whenever it looked dicey.

And I5 undulates a LOT all the way up!

 

[Dewg]

I think a lot of phantom braking now is just your auto-pilot adjusting very quickly to a speed limit change. For example you are on a road with with 55 as the speed limit, and you normally have your auto-pilot to go 5 over. But in this area, everybody drives 80, so you manually bump up speed limit to say 80. So now you are going 25 over the speed limit. When the speed limit drops from 55 to 45, your car suddenly want to drop in speed by 30 mph and rapidly slows down to 50 (b/c of the +5 setting). I see this a lot on interstates in congested areas where everyone drives way over the speed limit.

Unless people are rounding their numbers, I agree with you. When I read people saying their car was at 70 and PB'd to 55, that's more likely a speed limit change. If they say it was 70 and then PB'd to 58, and then returned to 70, I think that's more a real PB.

I also think many cases of unexpected limit changes are due to GPS inaccuracies. The car thinks it's on a different road or parallel street next to a freeway and adjusts the limit to that road.

 

[DrChaos]

The ongoing discussions of phantom braking makes me really disappointed in Tesla and reluctant to buy a new one.

Our 2015 Tesla S with the original, non-Telsa, AP practically never experiences phantom braking, less than once per year, and we use AP all the time. Perhaps we're just lucky, but I never heard much discussion of phantom braking, or even the phrase, before Tesla started doing their own software.

I haven't experienced any major (25 mph or more) phantom braking in almost a year, and most of the rest of it now is because of hidden speed limit changes. But I drive in crowded California freeways which is its natural environment.

There's PB in other driver assist systems.

Part of the reason for PB is also attempting to be more safe, slowing for things predictively which might cut into the lane. The curse of using too much intelligence.

It's easy to make a dumb 'TACC' type product with basic radar that will run into stuff, and have no phantom braking ever. That's what other cars do.

 

[evannole]

I think a lot of phantom braking now is just your auto-pilot adjusting very quickly to a speed limit change.

This does not reflect my experience, unfortunately. My morning commute has a speed limit of 65 for most of the first 10 miles. I drive on EAP and use a 10% offset, so the automatically set maximum speed is 72. As I near the city center, the speed limit drops to 55. The car correctly picks up the speed limit change - it shows it on the screen and audibly alerts me that I'm now 17 mph over the limit (I allow a 9-mph offset before it beeps at me), but the car never sets a new maximum speed on its own, nor does it slow down on its own. I have to do it myself, and always have, for five years now.

 

[rpo]

This does not reflect my experience, unfortunately. My morning commute has a speed limit of 65 for most of the first 10 miles. I drive on EAP and use a 10% offset, so the automatically set maximum speed is 72. As I near the city center, the speed limit drops to 55. The car correctly picks up the speed limit change - it shows it on the screen and audibly alerts me that I'm now 17 mph over the limit (I allow a 9-mph offset before it beeps at me), but the car never sets a new maximum speed on its own, nor does it slow down on its own. I have to do it myself, and always have, for five years now.

Yep, my various Model S's and X have never slowed down on their own when the speed limit changes. And the car knows too as it shows the horribly grainy speed limit sign image on the driver's screen.

 

[TriniB]

I think a lot of phantom braking now is just your auto-pilot adjusting very quickly to a speed limit change. For example you are on a road with with 55 as the speed limit, and you normally have your auto-pilot to go 5 over. But in this area, everybody drives 80, so you manually bump up speed limit to say 80. So now you are going 25 over the speed limit. When the speed limit drops from 55 to 45, your car suddenly want to drop in speed by 30 mph and rapidly slows down to 50 (b/c of the +5 setting). I see this a lot on interstates in congested areas where everyone drives way over the speed limit.

I can say with 100% certainty this has not been the case for my encounters with PB.

 

[powertoold]

Yes, much less phantom braking now (when I still had legacy stack; nowadays, I have FSD 11 on highway, and I've yet to experience phantom braking)

Phantom braking happens more often on long open roads at speeds > 60mph with no cars nearby or far away

 

[sandman1330]

I think a lot of phantom braking now is just your auto-pilot adjusting very quickly to a speed limit change. For example you are on a road with with 55 as the speed limit, and you normally have your auto-pilot to go 5 over. But in this area, everybody drives 80, so you manually bump up speed limit to say 80. So now you are going 25 over the speed limit. When the speed limit drops from 55 to 45, your car suddenly want to drop in speed by 30 mph and rapidly slows down to 50 (b/c of the +5 setting). I see this a lot on interstates in congested areas where everyone drives way over the speed limit.

Not in my case, no. That would require that it actually correctly read the speed limit signs for once. It misses 75% of speed limits signs in my area.

But I do take your point that this could be one source, but it isn't the case for me. My PB usually happens on long straight stretches, nowhere near any speed changes, and I do keep an eye on the "identified" speed as it's usually wrong so I'm constantly manually adjusting it.

 

[DrChaos]

Yep, my various Model S's and X have never slowed down on their own when the speed limit changes. And the car knows too as it shows the horribly grainy speed limit sign image on the driver's screen.

My 3 certainly does slow down when it finds a perceived speed limit change, highway and streets, for some of the them, but not others. I have no idea what the difference is.

 

[JohnB007]

In my case, it misses only at one spot, and that sign is currently standing at 45 degree... lol.

Other than that one, I get the correct speeds in all places. I really like the new quick slow down behavior. Saved me from potentially getting a ticket or two.

It is amazing to see so much variation on different regions of North America...

 

[Tigerblue]

I've had my MY LR for a little over a month now. PB was bad 1st few weeks. I realized it was ONLY on the I-4 (in Central FL) as there are many areas under construction. Car slows down & lowers my max speed from 70 to 40/50 everytime in the same areas. After the newest update, 2023.12.1, my car still slows down in these same areas, but not abruptly as b4. It's a slow slow-down, giving me plenty of time to press the accelerator & just power thru. I've used AP on 2-3 hr stretches of other freeways without any problems. That said, this is my 1st Tesla & it's the best car I've ever owned. I do not regret the purchase & will never go back to ICE dinosaurs. It was driving in my friend's M3 that got me hooked, so you will enjoy your car.

 

[LadyOnikara]

Do you have to turn on Autopilot if your car has it? I don't think I've had any phantom breaking but I usually am paying more attention to the very silly things the idiots around me on the road are doing. (Plus, I don't really drive our M3LR too much since it's hard to get it away from mom.)