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Phone Distracted Driver on Autopilot Slams into Firetruck

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That's kind of uncalled for. I explained my reasoning in great detail in the Mountain View crash thread. As you know, I think that there is a huge safety impact from AEB, TACC and other features, and that hides a negative or neutral concurrent impact by AS on safety. Your sources don't (and can't) break out AS from the other features, and I find it absolutely unbelievable that AS alone caused a 40% decrease in air bag crashes (and unless you believe that AS caused all of the increase, the evidence doesn't say anything about whether it contributed to any of the increase).

You and I aren't going to agree on this. And we went back and forth on it in the other thread. My hypothesis is definitely not disproved by the data you present, nor is yours proved. Until there is more data, we just have two competing hypothesizes.

I get that is your theory. But I'm not stating my own theory. I'm just repeating declarative statements issued by disinterested third parties that indicate statistically relevant correlations. That's the difference btw me and people that express their unsupported theories and emotional outrages, often combined with unjustified certainty, through manifestos.
 
R/
Tsla courageously has decided to trust its customer base.
To treat us as competent adults.

Overwhelmingly the good folks have affirmed his trust
and their truly elite status as
guardians of the bleeding edge.

No Compromise. Well done, people.
*
Utah Firetruck Kamikaze?
You are kicked out of the club.

Broke every rule
speeding, 60 MPH
Attention affixed to your cellphone
slammed into stopped traffic
at a stop light.

You had to pass a line of cars on the left,
stopped to make a left at the intersection

"Elon's Fault", the morons lament.

THERE OUGHT TO BE A LAW
*
A bad joke,
And a Comically bad argument.

And Not Elite.

Your membership is canceled,
for life.
*

A problem extends past our favorite brand.
There are now millions of cars on the road
with various driving gadgets, all this and that,
with different names, capabilities,
mixed sales pitches, and widespread confusion.

That is fine.

Buyer beware
Accept the responsibility.

The Driver is in control, until they remove the steering wheel.
This has not changed, and is the only thing that prevents a descent into chaos.

The Car made me do it.

No.
*
Alternative?
The nannys will come in and make a rule for everyone.
And ruin it.
Like they have ruined everything they touch.


They reduce us to the lowest common denominator morons
because that is their p[erception of humanity (another subject)

They over react to the actions of the biggest idiots, make a new Rule For Everyone
and we lose more freedoms.
*
Nobody told me Not To Drink the Drano
I have a lawyer.


Screw those people.
I have had quite enough of that, thank you.

(MADD banned Rock and Roll, an unintended consequence. ((Another sore subject))
(They claim this wqas an Unintended consequence.
I have ceased to believe in Unintended consequences.
*
Ms Firetruck kamikaze needs to lose her license.

I would ban her from ever owning a tesla for the rest of her pathetic life.
OUT.
*

BTW Wondergrrrl,
The pedal on the left Always stops the car
That goes for anyone in any car, anywhere.
Believe it or Not!
*
Utah, please put her in jail before she kills either you or me.

Most especially Me.

Not that i don't care about you good folks,
its just a thing I have about me.

*
We are adults, being treated as adults.
most are up to the challenge.
Well done, you deserve credit.
In many areas for most of you,
but specifically this.
*
To the rest, either stop your whining,
or go buy a subaru.

You are Not Elite.
Bye.
*
WRT family,
others using the car?
My answer is No.
I amstubborn and old now.
It is Nor negotiable.

Now you may have a situation where your ability to express The No is limited.
I am sorry about that.

Then, I would be inclined to have controls, speed control, and AP shut off for them.


And The Lord said, There shall be Neither Scratch Nor dent.
One scratch, one McDonald's cup, advances the negotiating position towards the No, for you.

Your family mileage may vary,

Now, let us go in peace.
Very very quickly at times.
But always responsibly,
ain control,
reaffirming a great man's
profound trust in the better angels of our nature.

Godspeed, and
keep the Faith.

Or, if you prefer
Elonspeed.

Which I suspect will ultimately involve a Time machine.
Someone please get to work on that?

Thank you.
/R
 
Turns out that the Tesla on AP actually sped up into the parked fire truck because the car it was tracking changed lanes (to go around the truck). At that point (since the Tesla didn't register the non-moving fire truck) AP switched from "follow the car in front of me" mode to "speed up to preprogrammed desired speed" mode). Then, Boom!

Tesla in Autopilot mode sped up before crashing | KSL.com

Tesla really need to come up with a fix for this behavior as it is bound to keep recurring. A moving car that changes lanes to expose a stopped fire truck is a pretty common occurrence.
 
Turns out that the Tesla on AP actually sped up into the parked fire truck because the car it was tracking changed lanes (to go around the truck). At that point (since the Tesla didn't register the non-moving fire truck) AP switched from "follow the car in front of me" mode to "speed up to preprogrammed desired speed" mode). Then, Boom!

Tesla in Autopilot mode sped up before crashing | KSL.com

Tesla really need to come up with a fix for this behavior as it is bound to keep recurring. A moving car that changes lanes to expose a stopped fire truck is a pretty common occurrence.

That's basically how radar based adaptive cruise control systems work.

It's not really a problem if a driver is paying attention. The problem is as soon as a person has even just adaptive cruise control they start to rely on it. Where they have one hand on the steering wheel, and one hand on their phone. Who knows where they have their eyes.

This kind of accident likely happens more often than we realize, but we don't hear about it. I've heard about it because people with these systems talk about it on forums in relationship with the whole AP thing.

With AP (or some other lane-steering) it's even worse in what their behavior could be.

There just isn't cost effective technology right now that detects stopped objects. That technology is Lidar (and the more expensive long range version).

I do agree with you in there isn't a path forwards with AP/EAP/ETC without solving this problem.

The vast majority of AP accidents are really failures to see stopped objects.

As long as this keeps happening there won't be AP, or even EAP for a long time.
 
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Good to hear that AEB worked perfectly...
Yeah, I agree, we always get to that key thing.

So I get it, AP is not a true AP, but merely a monkey on your lap. And when a car in front of you suddenly swerve to avoid a truck, the AP “helps” you by accelerating hence giving you less time to react, and AEB doesn’t trigger? Even with a fully aware driver (which I agree wasn’t the case here), this would be real bad as it makes the situation worse than having no AP at all (but a working AEB)
 
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Reactions: croman
Yeah, I agree, we always get to that key thing.

So I get it, AP is not a true AP, but merely a monkey on your lap. And when a car in front of you suddenly swerve to avoid a truck, the AP “helps” you by accelerating hence giving you less time to react, and AEB doesn’t trigger? Even with a fully aware driver (which I agree wasn’t the case here), this would be real bad as it makes the situation worse than having no AP at all (but a working AEB)

There are lots of problems with AEB in cars today.

They differ quite a bit in their performance, and what they detect yet most people don't have a clue about what their capabilities are.

The Tesla AEB isn't all that great as it's just a crash mitigation system that only reduces the speed by 25mph if it detects an unavoidable crash.

Detect being a keyword.

Since the tricky part of any AEB system is trying to balance the false positive, and false negatives.

The more things/situations you try to have it detect then the more likely a false positive will occur. For me I'd prefer fewer false positives.

Ideally what we'd have is a some score card from some agency that ranked the AEB systems. So we could see where Tesla ranks. From what I can tell their good in that all the cars they current sell have the system (that's really awesome), but the system itself isn't as good as the Volvo system. The Volvo system even detects large animals like a Moose.
 
Approaching a red light at 60 mph and a car changed lanes in front of her, exposing a fire truck, which she then ran into?

If only there was a reliable way to see large stopped vehicles whose view is apparently blocked by much smaller vehicles, AP would be so much safer. Got it.

Oh, and then there’s that minor factor of the red light. Who knew AP needed to be cancelled approaching a red light?
 
I believe for now, we all need to agree that driving with AP1 or AP2 is more challenging and requires constant monitoring.

Vigilance is mandatory as the auto steer and TACC will not respect red lights, Gore zones, stopped vehicles or other large obstructions or construction areas. Nothing wrong with that, as it is considered only level2 driving assisting.

The problem is with drivers expectations, ignore this at your own peril. We cannot fix stupid or irresponsible behavior, nor can any car manufacturer.

If you don't agree with this, then don't use it.
 
Turns out that the Tesla on AP actually sped up into the parked fire truck because the car it was tracking changed lanes (to go around the truck). At that point (since the Tesla didn't register the non-moving fire truck) AP switched from "follow the car in front of me" mode to "speed up to preprogrammed desired speed" mode). Then, Boom!

Tesla in Autopilot mode sped up before crashing | KSL.com

Tesla really need to come up with a fix for this behavior as it is bound to keep recurring. A moving car that changes lanes to expose a stopped fire truck is a pretty common occurrence.
"A moving car that changes lanes to expose a stopped fire truck is a pretty common occurrence." Shirley, you jest! :D

Every car from every manufacturer with Adaptive Cruise Control reacts and responds in the same manner in that situation, including my Prius. You are confusing Tesla TACC with FSD. We aren't there yet. Every driver with EAP or just plain, old school CC is responsible for their own car in the meantime.
 
Xue said he used nav on his phone when on AP.
How much vigilance do we need? 100% 80%?
- is scrolling the map on mcu safe when on AP?
- is entering an address into nav? Some cars block this while at speed.
-how about browsing the address book to make a call?
-searching for music on Spotify?
I feel unsafe doing this driving manually, what about on AP?
 
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"A moving car that changes lanes to expose a stopped fire truck is a pretty common occurrence." Shirley, you jest! :D

Every car from every manufacturer with Adaptive Cruise Control reacts and responds in the same manner in that situation, including my Prius. You are confusing Tesla TACC with FSD. We aren't there yet. Every driver with EAP or just plain, old school CC is responsible for their own car in the meantime.

I agree that this is a fault of TACC that is common to all advanced cruise control systems. I blame autopilot because AP makes it possible for the vehicle operator to pay a lot less attention to driving than an operator would have to pay if he or she were using TACC alone.

Thus, I think this is a situation that the TACC + AP combination needs to deal with properly.

Tesla shouldn't, in my opinion, have released/added AS until the car could deal with this situation.
 
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If AP doesn't see the firetruck, AEB won't either. I'm not surprised AEB wasn't (apparently) triggered.

In this case, if the firetruck hadn't been there the Tesla on AP would have accelerated through the intersection, red light or not. Could have been a worse accident in that case. No place for any cruise control if you're not paying attention.