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Plaid 21” rear tire woes - factory defect?

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Where did you get those? Are they the 21" Tesla OEM Michelins with the foam noise liners?
Tire Rack and yes acoustic foam and chipped T2's (10/32" tread made in USA) ...... I put a pair of rear "regular" Michelin Pilot Sport 4S, 295/30ZR-21 #62547, also from Tire Rack on last month because I had not gotten the T2's yet and they came with 11/32" tread made in France.......
 

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I hear Firestone.
Indeed, as do I.

Reading the history of that fiasco shows that many people "in the business" could have saved so many lives if they had just raised a stink, and KEPT raising a stink, once the first failures became known. (That's why this thread is so important . . . especially PICTURES!)

But they didn't and what a train wreck it became for Ford, Firestone/Bridgestone, and all that were killed or injured.

I keep banging the drum on this issue as you do NOT want to be there when a tire comes apart at high speed . . . it's a whole bunch of "not good."

The details are worth a read; one would think this would be part of mandatory training on the first day for all going to work at a tire retailer or manufacturer, but I guess it's not given that everyone at Tesla and Michelin (and tire retailers) appears to be doing very little (or nothing) on these tire failures, perhaps until there's an accident or three (and I sure hope I'm wrong):


The Firestone and Ford tire controversy of the 1990s saw hundreds of people die in automobile crashes caused by the failure of Firestone tires installed on light trucks made by Ford Motor Company.

Unusually high failure rates of P235/75R15 ATX, ATX II, and Wilderness AT tires installed on the Ford Explorer and similar vehicles were found to have caused crashes that killed 271 people and injured more than 800 others in the United States alone; more died in other countries.[1][2] The revelations led Ford and Bridgestone, owner of the Firestone brand, to recall 14.4 million tires in the United States in August 2000, and more in international markets.[1][2]

The revelations halved the market value of Bridgestone, which fired or accepted the resignation of several executives and closed the Decatur, Illinois, factory where the tires were manufactured.[3] Ford also fired or accepted the resignation of executives. Each company publicly blamed the other for the defects, a disagreement that brought an end to the companies' nearly 100-year relationship.[4]

Congressional inquiry into the scandal led to the enactment of the Transportation Recall Enhancement, Accountability and Documentation (TREAD) Act in October 2000.[5]

[truncated]

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Ditto for the Toyota floor mat fiasco that cost them billions, killed dozens, and could have been completely avoided IF a receptionist at a San Diego Lexus dealer had been given the most basic of training regarding the actions to take with any customer safety concern . . . but she wasn't.

At the early states of this disaster, the previous driver of a loaner Lexus ES350 reported, face-to-face, that the gas pedal got caught under the floor mat. IIRC, the how-can-you-possibly-be-so-stupid receptionist didn't do anything about it. The car was loaned out again; four people burned to death in the subsequent high-speed accident. Common sense isn't very common . . . .

From Wiki:

On September 26, 2007, Toyota recalled 55,000 sets of heavy-duty rubber floor mats for the Toyota Camry and Lexus ES 350 sedans.[6] The recalled mats were of the optional "all-weather" type. The NHTSA stated that the recall was due to the risk that unsecured mats could move forward and trap the gas pedal.[6]

On August 28, 2009, a two-car collision killed four people riding in a Lexus dealer-provided loaner ES 350 in San Diego, California; the accident was caused by the Lexus' incorrectly having been fitted with all-weather rubber floor mats meant for the RX 400h SUV, and the fact that these mats were not secured by either of the two retaining clips.[7] Additionally, the brake hardware showed signs of heavy braking consistent with a stuck accelerator pedal.[7] The investigators' report stated that the accelerator pedal's hinge did not allow relieving of obstructions, and the dashboard lacked directions for the three-second emergency press of the push button keyless ignition. NHTSA investigators also recovered the accident vehicle's accelerator pedal, which was still "bonded" to the SUV floor mat.[7]

Which lead to billions in avoidable losses:


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Let's nip this in the bud: please keep posting pictures of your delaminating Michelin 21" tires.

Thanks!
 
Michelin didn't design this OEM application in a vacuum. In addition to vehicle mass, HP, and torque, they also should consider suspension geometry of the vehicle. They don't design for 0 camber and 0 toe application. While I would expect tire failure after wearing to the cords, I don't expect tread to delaminate with legal tread left.
 
Absent any data, how can you possibly know what you posit in Item 4?

You wrote:

4) when the majority of the weight of the car is placed on a thin strip of the tire, obviously it is going to wear more. Do you think you will have even wear across the surface if the majority of the weight is placed in one area?


IF this were the case, which I find absurd, it would create massive wear on the wheel bearings and we'd be hearing of wheel bearings failing left and right. It makes little sense, especially given the redesigned suspension on the Palladium MS. Likewise, the wear is NOT occurring at the tread face, even on the inside edge, with most/all tires showing consistent wear across the tire. Instead, we have many photographs of tearing and delamination at the inner sidewall and tread junction. (There were suspicions of scoring from the suspension suggested early on, that's how "off tread" the damage is.)

Tires are complicated, despite their appearance. Thus, I suggest we leave the tire engineering to the experts and just look at the facts we have before us:

1. Tires with significant tread left are coming apart at the inner sidewall and tread junction.

2. Thus far, there are no reports of this occurring with any OEM 19" Pirelli tires, despite identical (AFAIK) suspension settings.

3. There is a massive dearth of 21" Michelin replacement tires, likely because a LOT of tires are failing.

4. There appears to be minimal to no action by NHTSA or Michelin to replace these tires, thus far. We sincerely hope there will be a recall or service action before there's an accident, especially with the first Plaid shipments to Germany, for Autobahn driving, arriving about now . . . . Give them a year or two in service, combine with someone's very bad luck, and we'll see some horrific headlines if this problem isn't addressed.

That was a really long response that can be debunked with a single sentence:

When you lower a car aligned at a certain height, the camber is increased and puts more weight on the inside corner of the tire.
 
That was a really long response that can be debunked with a single sentence:

When you lower a car aligned at a certain height, the camber is increased and puts more weight on the inside corner of the tire.
Which, sadly, does not even begin to support your remarkable claim:

when the majority of the weight of the car is placed on a thin strip of the tire, obviously it is going to wear more. Do you think you will have even wear across the surface if the majority of the weight is placed in one area?


As stated previously, it appears that neither one of us is a tire engineer so let's just stick with the facts.

I listed them at length.

Summary: Many Michelin tires with a LOT of tread left ACROSS THE ENTIRE TREAD WIDTH are shredding/delaminating at the inner sidewall and tread junction, as if they were lathed by something (they weren't). The only tires that have these issues appear to be the Michelin 21" Tesla OEM tires . . . and there are a lot of photographs documenting tires with low wear that have literally come apart. These photographs suggest an important safety defect, regardless of the cause, and they carry far more weight than the unsupported words on a screen from a unqualified speculator.
 
Will ya’ll please stop bickering and focus on what’s important here - your lives! Pushing for a Firestone type resolution may be the right thing to do, for everyone who doesn’t know this, but not at the cost of your own lives.

So, either stop driving, or go get 20” or 19” rims and call it a day
 
Will ya’ll please stop bickering and focus on what’s important here - your lives! Pushing for a Firestone type resolution may be the right thing to do, for everyone who doesn’t know this, but not at the cost of your own lives.

So, either stop driving, or go get 20” or 19” rims and call it a day

Yes, because no one should point out the fallacies in blaming the wrong components for the issue. It's also not reasonable to compare the situation to an issue that killed a couple hundred people, when none have knowingly died since Tesla started using 21" and causing this issue, many years ago.

I already have 19"s and the 21"s.
 
That was a really long response that can be debunked with a single sentence:

When you lower a car aligned at a certain height, the camber is increased and puts more weight on the inside corner of the tire.
It doesn't put all the load on the corner of the tire, it's a linear progression. If you set the tire at 2° camber the resulting extra pressure gradient across the tire should cause the tire to wear more on the inside until the surface of the tire matches the 2° camber. Then the tire should wear evenly until the tread is worn through. Yes, an oversimplification.....but its the basics. The tread should not delaminate and split just because there is camber. I repeat it again, delamination of the tread is a failure, it's not wear.

So my car has the non T spec 295/30-21's all around on 10.5" wheels. I did get MPP trailing arms and toe arms along the way. I am dropped on links -6/-7. My rear camber is 2.2° and my total toe is -0.2. Over 16,000mi at various camber and height settings. Sunny Socal, accelerate hard multiple times a day. Why do my tires look so good?

left rear.jpg
 
It doesn't put all the load on the corner of the tire, it's a linear progression. If you set the tire at 2° camber the resulting extra pressure gradient across the tire should cause the tire to wear more on the inside until the surface of the tire matches the 2° camber. Then the tire should wear evenly until the tread is worn through. Yes, an oversimplification.....but its the basics. The tread should not delaminate and split just because there is camber. I repeat it again, delamination of the tread is a failure, it's not wear.

I'd recommend you do some googling of "uneven camber wear" for a massive amount of photos and videos, contradicting your assertion.

This is not some new thing that happens, it's been an issue for decades and decades and decades.
 
I'd recommend you do some googling of "uneven camber wear" for a massive amount of photos and videos, contradicting your assertion.

This is not some new thing that happens, it's been an issue for decades and decades and decades.
thank you for your helpful research suggestions, would I find lots of delaminated treads in this search?
 
Perhaps Pirelli is on to something that Michelin didn't consider?

This from the Pirelli EV tire webpages (emphasis added):

Control your power. ELECT™ tires are specifically designed with enhanced grip to manage high torque and include reinforced structures to cope with EV weights, which tend to be heavier than traditional vehicles. Optimized performance in both acceleration and braking, with a focus on safety for you and your passengers.

And:

Electric vehicles can generate stronger stresses on tire wear and tear. Pirelli’s new innovative process aims to maintain the extended mileage required for high-performing EV tires while also minimizing waste of raw materials during the design and testing phases.

Which generates a possible explanation for the many Michelin tire failures: Michelin offered an "off-the-shelf" tire for the Palladium Model S update without fully comprehending the specifics of a Plaid's power output. In contrast, Pirelli did the leg work and developed an EV specific tire for the Palladium Model S, to include the Plaid, and simply built a more robust tire

I really wish they had also been an OEM supplier for the Palladium upgrade 21" Model S wheel. Then we'd have some great real world "A/B" testing and have a much better handle on this . . . but they aren't, and here we are.

The Pirelli website details adds another data point as to why we have yet to see (AFAIK) even a single Pirelli OEM Tesla tire delaminating on any Tesla forum . . . and it tends to further negate the argument that "it's all a Tesla camber issue and not a Michelin problem."

Sources:
 
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Will ya’ll please stop bickering and focus on what’s important here - your lives! Pushing for a Firestone type resolution may be the right thing to do, for everyone who doesn’t know this, but not at the cost of your own lives.

So, either stop driving, or go get 20” or 19” rims and call it a day
I like my 21's. I paid for my 21's. I want my 21's.
 
Perhaps Pirelli is on to something that Michelin didn't consider?

This from the Pirelli EV tire webpages (emphasis added):

Control your power. ELECT™ tires are specifically designed with enhanced grip to manage high torque and include reinforced structures to cope with EV weights, which tend to be heavier than traditional vehicles. Optimized performance in both acceleration and braking, with a focus on safety for you and your passengers.

And:

Electric vehicles can generate stronger stresses on tire wear and tear. Pirelli’s new innovative process aims to maintain the extended mileage required for high-performing EV tires while also minimizing waste of raw materials during the design and testing phases.

Which generates a possible explanation for the many Michelin tire failures: Michelin offered an "off-the-shelf" tire for the Palladium Model S update without fully comprehending the specifics of a Plaid's power output. In contrast, Pirelli did the leg work and developed an EV specific tire for the Palladium Model S, to include the Plaid, and simply built a more robust tire

I really wish they had also been an OEM supplier for the Palladium upgrade 21" Model S wheel. Then we'd have some great real world "A/B" testing and have a much better handle on this . . . but they aren't, and here we are.

The Pirelli website details adds another data point as to why we have yet to see (AFAIK) even a single Pirelli OEM Tesla tire delaminating on any Tesla forum . . . and it tends to further negate the argument that "it's all a Tesla camber issue and not a Michelin problem."

Sources:
The T spec tires aren't "off the shelf" they are a variant that were specifically adapted to the needs of the Plaid. The Pirelli ad language is marketing. Someone mentioned that the weight for the T spec and the non spec is the same. If that is true, since the foam weighs something, the weight had to come from somewhere. Because my non T spec tires don't seem to have any issues, I actually am leaning toward thinking the non T spec tire is actually more durable.

Clearly the T spec tire isn't able to handle the heat and friction generated by the stress that the camber and toe settings put on the inside corner of the tire.
 
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Perhaps Pirelli is on to something that Michelin didn't consider?

This from the Pirelli EV tire webpages (emphasis added):

Control your power. ELECT™ tires are specifically designed with enhanced grip to manage high torque and include reinforced structures to cope with EV weights, which tend to be heavier than traditional vehicles. Optimized performance in both acceleration and braking, with a focus on safety for you and your passengers.

And:

Electric vehicles can generate stronger stresses on tire wear and tear. Pirelli’s new innovative process aims to maintain the extended mileage required for high-performing EV tires while also minimizing waste of raw materials during the design and testing phases.

Which generates a possible explanation for the many Michelin tire failures: Michelin offered an "off-the-shelf" tire for the Palladium Model S update without fully comprehending the specifics of a Plaid's power output. In contrast, Pirelli did the leg work and developed an EV specific tire for the Palladium Model S, to include the Plaid, and simply built a more robust tire

I really wish they had also been an OEM supplier for the Palladium upgrade 21" Model S wheel. Then we'd have some great real world "A/B" testing and have a much better handle on this . . . but they aren't, and here we are.

The Pirelli website details adds another data point as to why we have yet to see (AFAIK) even a single Pirelli OEM Tesla tire delaminating on any Tesla forum . . . and it tends to further negate the argument that "it's all a Tesla camber issue and not a Michelin problem."

Sources:

I have the P Zero Winter which are the "Elect" series in the OEM 21" sizes and they are T0 marked. Have over 1k miles now and no issues. Will have an additional 3k miles by the end of December. Will check the wear. Great tires but time will tell if they have the Michelin issue.

Also, Michelin has the Pilot Sport EV now in the Tesla OEM sizes (linky). This would be the Michelin version of the Pirelli Elect. According to Michelin's website, the EV's are approx. 1lb heavier than their non-EV counterparts. The ones they make currently are Mercedes spec'd. Someone should contact a Merc dealer and get a set to see if the same thing happens.
 
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