POLL: Changes in feeling toward Tesla

[jerry33]

The car wouldn't function without software that didn't work well, there's no real hardware-software dichotomy here when you look at the product. I was there in the 90's. I would have, for example, shivved my grandmother for a PC that pulled off its function as well and as reliably as the Tesla does. This is a crazy complex control system that's shoved into a mobile consumer product. It is mind-numbing how far this task is past anything that was being pulled off then.

The problem is that the visible software people interact with (as opposed to the invisible software that runs the car) is not great--particularly the UI in V9 and the audio system. I suspect, because those modules are not critical to driving, interns, who have hardly ever driven any car, are the programmers. No one who has driven a car for any amount of time would let a system that requires many presses on a complex interface which requires studying (eyes of the road) to use get into production. You can see this if you've seen the V6 UI which was just about perfect (not perfect functionally, but perfect from a UI standpoint). Each revision after that has been a bit worse with a big drop in UI usability in V9.

 

[SO16]

Honestly, in two years, none of this is even going to matter.

Reducing the costs and to pass those on to the consumers is a good thing. This puts even more pressure on the competition. Prior to the price drop, the price was really the only thing going for the competition. Now they don’t even have that.

If the online sales model pays off, then great! If not, Tesla can and will change....quickly. And that’s a good thing.

 

[SammichLover]

The problem is that the visible software people interact with (as opposed to the invisible software that runs the car) is not great--particularly the UI in V9 and the audio system.

I certainly question some of their UI choices but that still doesn't hold water if you're trying to compare to "the 90's". There's a subjective nature to this but that assessment is not anywhere near "reasonable". There's been enormous advancement in the field of UX over the last couple decades (including thinking about it as UX aka "user experience"), and the Model 3 is well within the upper percentiles of that contemporary range.

No one who has driven a car for any amount of time would let a system that requires many presses on a complex interface which requires studying (eyes of the road) to use get into production.

I was first to the front of the line for taking to task the new skeuomorphic HVAC UI. Only they've already addressed the worst of that, by moving almost all the buttons from the far right over in easier sight & reach of the driver.

The UI on that system is pretty good. It blows away any other vehicle screen out there overall, though there are strong contenders for the media portion.

The map/nav stuff is a generation past any other vehicle's system, its not even close. Even going to a phone, which has an inherent advantage of development somewhat untethered by the vehicle development, CarPlay/Android Auto aren't that good overall, though their backend live data is better. The critical vehicle controls portion is actually pretty good. Key is to place your fingers on the back of the bottom of the panel and use your thumb. Along with the spinners on the steering wheel, that makes peripheral glance on the stuff you generally used while driving very feasible. Too bad the NN for the Autowipers is still so weak, or you wouldn't even need that for the windshield wipers.

 

[MKandyman]

As much as I am enjoying my Model 3 (closing in on a year already ) I admit that their recent string of, IMO, erratic announcements makes me feel slightly more negative about the company. I am also disappointed with all the stories I hear of poor customer service, coupled with my own mildly unsatisfying service appointment to fix some minor issues.

The design and engineering of their cars, especially the power train is why Tesla has been so successful to date. But other than their technical teams, the rest of the company seems to be run by a bunch of auto industry leftovers who couldn’t hack it at one of the big automakers.

At the end of the day if they fail to satisfy current owners, they will lose to other car companies, many of whom are also making EV’s. Of course as someone who enjoys their car I hope they pull it together, but I’m less confident than I was a few weeks ago.

 

[Nocturnal]

I certainly question some of their UI choices but that still doesn't hold water if you're trying to compare to "the 90's". There's a subjective nature to this but that assessment is not anywhere near "reasonable". There's been enormous advancement in the field of UX over the last couple decades (including thinking about it as UX aka "user experience"), and the Model 3 is well within the upper percentiles of that contemporary range.


I was first to the front of the line for taking to task the new skeuomorphic HVAC UI. Only they've already addressed the worst of that, by moving almost all the buttons from the far right over in easier sight & reach of the driver.

The UI on that system is pretty good. It blows away any other vehicle screen out there overall, though there are strong contenders for the media portion.

The map/nav stuff is a generation past any other vehicle's system, its not even close. Even going to a phone, which has an inherent advantage of development somewhat untethered by the vehicle development, CarPlay/Android Auto aren't that good overall, though their backend live data is better. The critical vehicle controls portion is actually pretty good. Key is to place your fingers on the back of the bottom of the panel and use your thumb. Along with the spinners on the steering wheel, that makes peripheral glance on the stuff you generally used while driving very feasible. Too bad the NN for the Autowipers is still so weak, or you wouldn't even need that for the windshield wipers.

The Tesla UI is objectively good and at least in line with the competition. I think it's far better myself.

 

[SammichLover]

The Tesla UI is objectively good and at least in line with the competition. I think it's far better myself.

For vehicles, to be sure. That's kinda a lower bar, though. For consumer products in general there's some very fine work out there, so not sure I'd put it at the pinnacle of contemporary UX in general. But they've done a pretty good job at not requiring you to drill several layers down to get to things while keeping things mostly organized in a way that is rememberable even if there is some learning curve rather than "I just get it" for most people.

And it definitely has places for improvement. Somehow working in waypoints is a challenging task but has potential as a very high value feature.

 

[Nocturnal]

For vehicles, to be sure. That's kinda a lower bar, though. For consumer products in general there's some very fine work out there, so not sure I'd put it at the pinnacle of contemporary UX in general. But they've done a pretty good job at not requiring you to drill several layers down to get to things while keeping things mostly organized in a way that is rememberable even if there is some learning curve rather than "I just get it" for most people.

And it definitely has places for improvement. Somehow working in waypoints is a challenging task but has potential as a very high value feature.

I don't really expect my car's UI to be on parity with say Samsung or Apple phones. A phone is 100% UI, our Teslas are maybe 30% UI. Always room for improvement of course.

 

[flyhigh123]

I love Tesla, but my changes in feeling is toward Elon musk. Musk has lost his path and vision. Either burnt out, drugged out, or too many projects but he’s not the old Elon from a few years back.

 

[more863-also]

I love Tesla, but my changes in feeling is toward Elon musk. Musk has lost his path and vision. Either burnt out, drugged out, or too many projects but he’s not the old Elon from a few years back.

I think he's bored with Tesla and more interested in his other projects now. Tbf the work Boring and SpaceX are doing is cool.

 

[Barklikeadog]

I think he's bored with Tesla and more interested in his other projects now. Tbf the work Boring and SpaceX are doing is cool.

just the way he is wired. he loves creating new businesses. servicing old ones is boring and annoying.

 

[googlepeakoil]

Price changes seem perfectly fine to me, and just what you'd expect from a business based in a rapidly-developing technology. What kind of concerns me, though, is this: eliminating stores (don't know which ones or how many) and going 100% online for sales. It suggests shaping the entire company in the image of its early adopters - techies who enjoy poring through information, options, reviews, in order to figure out exactly what they need - and ignoring those who don't have the time, skills or inclination for all that crap. People who just want a good car. And while it may not be obvious here, I'm pretty sure there are a lot of them. Many of the enormous hits in the SV startup world are based in some way on our hard-wired laziness. And this: I don't think buying a $50k automobile you can return if you don't like it is "just the same" as ordering a new pair of shoes from Zappos. And I don't think that "80% of orders now are entirely online" is meaningful since 100% of those orders have been placed by early adopters.
Hate to see Tesla cede such a huge potential market to traditional manufacturers who don't deserve the gift.
Robin

The price changes in the US (don't know where you're from) were relatively minor at $1-12k I think. Internationally the Ludicrous S / X dropped 30-40% overnight. The one below that by 15%. There's the Taiwan and China stories that got reported. But even in the UK the S went from £135,000 to £95,000 overnight. £40k or circa $55k. I think the rest of the World (Europe, Australa) had similar changes. This strikes of massive desperation and terrible leadership. If prices are going up now you could almost buy one today and list it 2nd hand on Monday as brand new. Do some arbitrage!
The promise of pay $5k for vapourware due soon but if you don't buy now pay $6 or $7k later is pretty disgusting - when 2-3 years later it disappears from the website then is flogged off at $3k or whatever it is. No-one yet has it but people now can get it many $1000s cheaper.
If you bought concert tickets at $100 each 6 months early. Then find out that the same concert tickets are going for $50 on the days before delivery you'd feel irked. Tesla were supposed to be better than this. Amazon levels prices for pre-ordered items. Nobody pays more than anyone else before a bluray release.

 

[mswlogo]

it's a very situational question...

if you had no AP or FSD and get to upgrade for 5K- you love tesla right now
if you bought AP and get to upgrade to FSD for another 2k- you're not pissed
If you bought AP + FSD for 8K- you're like WTF
If you bought FSD post delivery for 4K or 5K (ahem, someone like me)- you're irate

people in different situations are arguing with each other... no common ground. If you were grouped into the other person's situation you would probably feel the way they do.

That's exactly the problem. And it's sadly dividing us. I'm in your WTF group and it makes me feel slightly better not being in the IRATE group.

I really don't mind LOVE and NOT PISSED groups getting a good deal.

But just give the WTF and IRATE group something in return. It might not even be something they even want, but a gesture that they gave one iota of thought to folks that do feel duped would help heal things.

I think it's a lot like Taxes or Airplane tickets. People generally don't care what they pay, as long as it's fair and equal. When the "other guy" gets the same thing for 1/2 the price, people get upset. Tesla is supposed to be the "No Dealer Incentives" model, no sales. Well FSD/EAP just went on sale for half price !!

Tesla has earned some prestige over the years but has been a niche. I realize they are trying to become a high volume company. But the BURST of Model 3 sales was in big part due to that prestige. The prestige even survived the Elon fumbles last year with SEC etc. But these fumbles directed directly at customers that were confident in that prestige (that paid extra) feel a bit lost. Now perhaps the general public has no idea what's going on and still see Tesla's prestige. But I bet a good amount of those looking to preorder a Y see the bad behavior.

There is no reason to lose the prestige. Even if they have a bad quarter or two, it's that prestige that will help them ride it through some tough times. And it bothers me Elon does not have that confidence that he has built something amazing and he is bowing to stock market pressures to have short term good quarters (or less bad quarters). He doesn't want to get beaten up on wall street for a real bad quarter. But he was willing to risk some of the prestige he has built up for one quarter being less bad.

In my eyes, some of that prestige is eroded. If I had to use a number it slipped from say 85% to 65%, in one week !!
Tesla can crawl back. But they will have to knock a few out of the park to do so. It's a shame this happened during the recent huge accomplishments at SpaceX too.

BTW, they just sent me a check for the taxes on the $5K performance refund (never expected that). And they are releasing Track Mode for Stealth Performance. I didn't even care about getting the $5K back. That was a car price drop. But people bitched and Elon gave in, when he SHOULDN'T HAVE. No biggy. But everyone else was getting it, so I wanted it too (see my Taxes and Tickets comment above).

If not for these past few weeks they would be at 95% in my eyes. And I'd be chatting up every friend about the virtues of Tesla. OK they earned back to 75% (for Tax check and Track mode, but a lot of other owners didn't get that). But I'm still in no mood to chat up Tesla to friends or curious onlookers. Sorry Elon I can't help it.

And for the 100th time, I could care less if the price on the CAR goes up or down. I 100% expected it to go down to combat ending tax credits and competition. I even expected software to be the main area that prices would go down on for NEW BUYERS. But nothing should change the initial agreements.

BTW, one of Elon's latest tweets was he lowered the price for after purchase EAP/FSD for folks that couldn't afford it. Elon please stop treating us like we were born yesterday. What about the folks buying new cars that "can't afford it", you're still charging them $8k/$11K. How many that "couldn't afford it" bought Red Paint, 19" Wheels and White interior. How many squeaked out paying for a Performance and skipped EAP/FSD to swing it.

 

[N5329K]

Nobody pays more than anyone else before a bluray release.

...Or in this case, the price reduction for FSD is a bit like, "You can pay much less now for a Betamax release."
It might happen. It might not. Technology and regulation might be there. Technology and regulation might change. You're not buying a usable product, but the promise of a potential product, in some form, someday.
Way too fuzzy for me.
Robin

 

[mswlogo]

...Or in this case, the price reduction for FSD is a bit like, "You can pay much less now for a Betamax release."
It might happen. It might not. Technology and regulation might be there. Technology and regulation might change. You're not buying a usable product, but the promise of a potential product, in some form, someday.
Way too fuzzy for me.
Robin

I think folks are realizing there is a lot FSD can do without being regulation approved driverless. I bought FSD because I wanted to witness that development, even if I could not take a nap while it drove me to work. I also think folks realize the whole system could be better with HW3 and another reason I bought it up front. Maybe even the auto wipers and auto high beam might improve (that alone would be worth it) I figured some day HW2.5 won't get the software improvements HW3 will. After spending that kind of money it would crazy not to sign on to the cheapest plan to get HW3. If could not have got assurances of HW3, I might have opted to wait until it was released. The buzz was it was fairly critical going forward for a good while.

Even if they for example get the Advanced Summon working. That will be freaking amazing. And is approved by regulators. Now I have my doubts on how robust and safe it will be. But if they can even pull that off it will be pretty huge in my mind. It will also be HUGE free advertising. Look Mommy a car just stopped to let us walk across and there is no driver. I won't be the first to test it though

 

[googlepeakoil]

...Or in this case, the price reduction for FSD is a bit like, "You can pay much less now for a Betamax release."
It might happen. It might not. Technology and regulation might be there. Technology and regulation might change. You're not buying a usable product, but the promise of a potential product, in some form, someday.
Way too fuzzy for me.
Robin

Yeah. The vapourware. You don't know what form FSD will take. If it will pass within the next 3-5 years. Will it handle country UK roads where you have to give way by looking over your shoulder at odd junctions? Where you have to inch out? Will it handle traffic officers waving you forward and hand operated STOP-GO signs?! Will it give way for ambulances and fire engines when it hears the siren approaching from behind? Level 5 seems impossible on normal roads. I would never go for a 20% saving (1k on a 5k price) on something so vapourish.

 

[jeffro01]

I was all Tesla, all the time, defended them without hesitation so much that I got a bit of a reputation here for my unapologetic defense of Tesla... Those days are so far gone for me... I can't wait for a viable competitor so I don't have to give this corrupt and incompetent company another dime of my money... Tesla's slogan should be "Great cars, incompetent and corrupt company"...

Jeff

 

[more863-also]

I just don't believe FSD is ever going to actually be anything close to what most folks envision 'full self driving' is. For example, there are some nasty right turns in my area that you can turn on when the light's red. These turns don't have proper striping, and you need to look pretty far down the road to make the turn safely. I have no reason to believe this type of turn will ever be accomplished with the sensor suite that Tesla has in its cars, and if you can't do something as basic as that, it's not really FSD.

 

[jeffro01]

I just don't believe FSD is ever going to actually be anything close to what most folks envision 'full self driving' is. For example, there are some nasty right turns in my area that you can turn on when the light's red. These turns don't have proper striping, and you need to look pretty far down the road to make the turn safely. I have no reason to believe this type of turn will ever be accomplished with the sensor suite that Tesla has in its cars, and if you can't do something as basic as that, it's not really FSD.

Agreed. It would be nice though to be able to take my hands off of the wheel though on the freeway... I'd take that as FSD at this point... LOL

Jeff