[Poll] P3 Free Lifetime Unlimited Supercharging vs. $5,000 Refund

[MXWing]

I'm one of those people freken awful at math!

1) I continue my usual work while charging during my lunch breaks, so not much time is wasted there.
2) My local supercharger is next to where I usually spend lunch at anyway, so basically zero extra travel.
3) Can't speak much for maintenance, but I'm used to the usual 30+ min wait times... in addition to the 1+ hour actual charging times.
4) Joke's on them, I'm already dead inside!
5) That'd be nice, as long as they don't take multiple hours.

I've spent almost $1k in roughly half a year in just supercharging costs alone. I cannot charge at home as all quotes for installing a plug for my spot in my apartment's parking have been astronomically high, and I've been house shopping for a while now so I don't see it being worth spending so much on. My employer is also unwilling to install a plug in my parking space.

Assuming I still haven't found a place to charge at home, I would easily end up spending those $5k on supercharging alone in 2 years from now, thus saving me money after that. Earlier if supercharging costs increase again. Kinda makes me wish I had gone for the performance Model 3, rather than my RWD.

Every case has its corner.

You might consider selling your RWD Model 3 and getting a S P85D or something will FUSC. Smokes a 3P even.

 

[Shopmicrocode]

Keep the 5k but give me the option to exchange supercharging for EAP.

 

[owensd]

On the fence for me really... I drive about 40k miles a year, but I only currently only supercharge about 1/3rd of those miles (home and work charger). However, the break even point for me is a lot sooner than most people, and after that, it's all gravy!

I could change it up to shift about half of those miles to the supercharger, but I don't really think I want to spend the extra time on that.

 

[MXWing]

The option to choose 5000 / FUSC is basically an adverse selection poll.

Those who won’t get close to 5000 of charging choose the refund.

Those who will hit 5000 or more of charging use FUSC.

Tesla loses either way because of assymetric information.

 

[outie]

Keep the 5k but give me the option to exchange supercharging for EAP.

Take the refund and pay for EAP?

 

[Jedi2155]

Basically they lose the people who would use SC the lease with the $5000, while the people most likely to abuse it would keep SC. Tesla loses is every possible scenario.

I would be a person who might abuse but I know economics well enough to say give me my $5000.

For those who feel bad about how this impacts Tesla, and don't have EAP, buy EAP even if you don't need it yet because it would impact resale value and you never know when it might be useful.

Or save it in an investment fund as others have suggested for your next Tesla.

 

[TaoJones]

Electricity is $0.07/kWh where I live. At my average of 290 Wh/mile, I'd have to drive ~250,000 miles exclusively on superchargers to save $5k.

I'll be taking the refund. Drop it into an index fund and it will ideally pay for free supercharging itself.

Well, it’s $0.26/kWh here, and the displayed average doesn’t tell the whole story by a long shot. After 4 years of driving these cars , I get at best 55% of rated range in town and still get 94.9% (5.1% degradation) on the open (flat, in good wx at moderate speed) road.

Yeah, for me it’s not close - SCing is worth $3K/year to me. I’d take the FUSC in a heartbeat. But only if the Model 3 comes with an ESA.

 

[MacGreiner]

Free Supercharging Because who knows how much electricity in California is going to cost in future. And Just as long I own I can pretty much go in any supercharging station and charge for free. That is huge It will work out much more than 5k over the years.

Within my children's lifetime, I'm convinced that electrical power will become close to free. Not a matter of if, but when.
I voted to take the $5k and put it in tsla stock - option 5.

 

[Perry]

I'm one of those people freken awful at math!

1) I continue my usual work while charging during my lunch breaks, so not much time is wasted there.
2) My local supercharger is next to where I usually spend lunch at anyway, so basically zero extra travel.
3) Can't speak much for maintenance, but I'm used to the usual 30+ min wait times... in addition to the 1+ hour actual charging times.
4) Joke's on them, I'm already dead inside!
5) That'd be nice, as long as they don't take multiple hours.

I've spent almost $1k in roughly half a year in just supercharging costs alone. I cannot charge at home as all quotes for installing a plug for my spot in my apartment's parking have been astronomically high, and I've been house shopping for a while now so I don't see it being worth spending so much on. My employer is also unwilling to install a plug in my parking space.

Assuming I still haven't found a place to charge at home, I would easily end up spending those $5k on supercharging alone in 2 years from now, thus saving me money after that. Earlier if supercharging costs increase again. Kinda makes me wish I had gone for the performance Model 3, rather than my RWD.

No one is taking into consideration that supercharging enough times to make up the 5K is bad for the battery. So getting the 5K back is a better intensive for the car's longevity.

And then there is the possibility that life time SC will not be honored after a few years. You never know who comes to power in that company and terminates the perk. 5K in the pocket is the safest bet.

 

[juanmedina]

No one is taking into consideration that supercharging enough times to make up the 5K is bad for the battery. So getting the 5K back is a better intensive for the car's longevity.

And then there is the possibility that life time SC will not be honored after a few years. You never know who comes to power in that company and terminates the perk. 5K in the pocket is the safest bet.

What about the Tesla semi those will exclusively be charged and superchargers and magachargers. We don't know how much it really hurts the battery.

I am still wondering if tesla will let you use the free supercharging for their self driving taxi share network. If that's the case free supercharging is akiller deal. The powertrain on the model 3 seems to be designed to last a million miles hopefully the rest of the car will also last a million miles.

 

[Msjulie]

How about give me a $3000 refund and let me keep supercharging!

Or dare I even say split the diff... $2500 to me would end up as Tesla stock..

 

[daniel]

Free lifetime unlimited supercharging is worth very little to me. There are no superchargers near where I live or near where I think I might be moving to in a year. My once-a-year road trip (if I don't move) would not make it worthwhile. This year it was less than $80. What would $5,000 in supercharger fees get you? About 50,000 miles of range? So if you're going to use the superchargers for 50,000 miles of driving you'd break even.

Did I do that right?

 

[israndy]

What about the Tesla semi those will exclusively be charged and superchargers and magachargers. We don't know how much it really hurts the battery.

What we have heard is that early Tesla Semis will be set up with chargers at the loading depot, so not exclusively charged at Megachargers. Also, that cars that have been charged repeatedly at Superchargers don't charge as fast anymore in what Tesla calls a battery protection strategy. Also, new Urban superchargers charge at half the rate, perhaps also a battery protection strategy for those that have to charge exclusively at those chargers as they live in apartments...

Oh, it kills me that there are those who would trade their FUSC for $5000, I would go the other way in a heartbeat if it was offered. I don't care about losing money, just to NOT THINK if I should Supercharge or not. I presently search out Volta chargers and leave the car at the mall in a strange towns overnight just to avoid paying for Supercharging. Would love to just pay for it once and be done for life.

-Randy

 

[jbcarioca]

So far, 6 people are absolutely frieken awful at math.

Factoring in
1.) Economic profit (value - opp cost of time x money)
2.) Extra transit miles for wear and tear + depreciation
3.) unforeseen wait times + maintenance
4.) potential of getting murdered
What happens when there aren’t enough superchargers : teslamotors
5.) increasing competition for chargers with fixed charging stations..

You gotta be out of your mind to forgo 5000 over FUSC.

"...out of your mind...". No. I drive long trips mostly, often in Canada, often in pacles where electricity payment for paid-Supercharging is >$0.20 kWh. My ordinary usage over four years will easily pay for the $5,000 opportunity cost. Depending on where one drives and how much the equation would be vastly different. Your conclusion would be correct in easily 80% of eligible buyers, I suspect. For even many of those this will b an emotional decision ratehr than an economic one. For reference just look at your own purchases and see how many are optimal economic decisions.

FWIW, my thesis was on part of this subject. People are NOT pure rational purchasers of anything at all. If we were, none of us would be buying Tesla products, Apple products nor Heinz Catsup, for that matter.

It is ill-advised to describe non-rational buying with irrational buying. They aren't the same. Take a look at your own purchases to confirm that.

The lifetime Supercharging option is an extremely well-designed appeal. From an accounting perspective I applaud it. After all I am a Tesla shareholder. From a personal perspective, I'd be well ahead on an accrual basis for my first 5,000 miles, so long as I keep up th pace. I did with my P85D so why would I not with my P3D+. Neither of these cars made any economic sense either, but I dearly love them, and I pay for pleasure.

Extended warranties have an expected profit margin of ~80% for most manufacturers products and supposedly rational people keep buying them. These are akin to LSC in that they really are insurance products.

 

[MXWing]

"...out of your mind...". No. I drive long trips mostly, often in Canada, often in pacles where electricity payment for paid-Supercharging is >$0.20 kWh. My ordinary usage over four years will easily pay for the $5,000 opportunity cost. Depending on where one drives and how much the equation would be vastly different. Your conclusion would be correct in easily 80% of eligible buyers, I suspect. For even many of those this will b an emotional decision ratehr than an economic one. For reference just look at your own purchases and see how many are optimal economic decisions.

FWIW, my thesis was on part of this subject. People are NOT pure rational purchasers of anything at all. If we were, none of us would be buying Tesla products, Apple products nor Heinz Catsup, for that matter.

It is ill-advised to describe non-rational buying with irrational buying. They aren't the same. Take a look at your own purchases to confirm that.

The lifetime Supercharging option is an extremely well-designed appeal. From an accounting perspective I applaud it. After all I am a Tesla shareholder. From a personal perspective, I'd be well ahead on an accrual basis for my first 5,000 miles, so long as I keep up th pace. I did with my P85D so why would I not with my P3D+. Neither of these cars made any economic sense either, but I dearly love them, and I pay for pleasure.

Extended warranties have an expected profit margin of ~80% for most manufacturers products and supposedly rational people keep buying them. These are akin to LSC in that they really are insurance products.

You can always find users that supercharge extensively - so it makes sense on a microeconomics level but not a macroeconomic level.

As I mentioned later, it's an adverse selection poll and behavior analysis.

The Model S owners who use 200 miles of supercharging in a year are the ones subsidizing your 20,000 miles of supercharging.

It's a terrible idea to offer it for free because the second fundamental theorem of economics is "There is no free lunch".

SOMEONE is paying for it.. whether it be another owner or TSLA shareholders.

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

As I understand it the free supercharging for life is only for the duration that we own the vehicle. Is that correct? Once we sell the vehicle or trade it in the free supercharging goes away. It doesn't follow the vehicle or the owner.

With the Model S that I owned I really enjoyed the free supercharging because I knew it would follow the vehicle. It added value to the vehicle. The amount of value really depended on the buyer, but it had a large psychological value to it that exceeded back of the napkin math.

With the Model 3 it's hard to justify the $$'s when the supercharging is likely going to disappear. I very rarely keep a vehicle for more than 3-4 years, and I hardly ever put more than 50K miles on it. I've been driving for 20+ years and I don't think I've ever put more than 50K miles on a vehicle before I got another vehicle.

The value of free supercharging for me is highly tied into whether FSD is going to be successful. If it's successful then I'd put a crap ton of miles on the vehicle. But, it's highly unlikely to be successful to the extent of allowing for that. What tends to keep me off the road is knowing how much traffic I'll have to deal with. I don't see that changing anytime soon.

Such a large percentage of people will go for the $5K refund that Tesla should strongly consider having an alternative to mitigate such a large loss of $$$'s.

Like I'd go for a really good winter tire set. The PUP complicated the wheel/tire selection to the point that one of the most popular threads on TMC is Winter tires for the P3D+.

I'd also go for any kind of Ludicrous mode. Obviously the people who bought a P3D cared about 0-60, and even a tiny bit faster is worth $$$'s.

 

[Uncle Paul]

There is a certain joy when supercharging for free. I still remember the original quote that a guy drove from LA to NYC and never took his wallet out.
Similar to having solar, where there is joy in turning down your AC on a hot day, when before it would make you grit your teeth.

Everybodys economics will be different due to their individual costs of home electricity or price of their used Superchargers.

I thought it was super cool for Elon to offer those purchasing at the higher price the option. Also nice that Tesla looks at their pricing from time to time, and makes adjustments due to the circumstances. Amazing how some people were whinning about them lowering their prices.

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

Tesla looks at their pricing from time to time, and makes adjustments due to the circumstances. Amazing how some people were whinning about them lowering their prices.

The problem with adjusting the pricing is just how fast they do it, and how they ignore their customers when doing it.

Take Red Paint for example. On TMC there are large threads about paint quality, and about problems specifically with red paint. Sure it's a popular color, and sure you could do cost justifications to justify raising the price. But, wouldn't have made sense to fix the problem first and then raise it? To the end customer it looked like someone trying to purposely avoid selling something because they couldn't get it right. So they were charging more money for something that wasn't that good to begin with.

The paint issue was so bad I'm sure I wasn't the only one who strongly considered getting a good base color, and then getting a wrap. I picked Blue and they couldn't even get that right.

Then there was the pricing of AWD. When it was initially released the price was $5K, but then they lowered it to $4K due the circumstances of angry customers who expected under $5K. Then when that phase was done with they raised it back to $5K. Then I believe at some point it went to $6K. Now for all practical purposes it's gone unless you get the cheaper Mid-Range one.

But, nothing compared to the sheer ignorance of the performance package. It should have never happened.

The P3D- simply doesn't make any sense from Tesla's perspective. Elon is really big about reducing the number of options to simplify production. But, with the P3D- there was a different configuration that had to be built, a different configuration for Track Mode. It simply doesn't make sense from their perspective.

The fact that they bailed on it is proof that it was a screw up.

Then they screwed up in fixing the problem. All they had to do is wait till the new year. They could have used the lower tax credit as easy justification to lower it by $5K.

But, no one at Tesla seems to have pulse on the customer.

Being a Tesla owner/fan is accepting that Tesla will do some really cool things, but they'll also do some really stupid things.

In my experience of owning/following Tesla the best recourse a customer has is to whine.

It might not be pretty, but it works. It's so effective that it's proof itself that Tesla needs to do better at setting goals/direction and sticking with it, They do so many course corrections that it's wildly inefficient.

 

[AnesDragon]

I would likely ask for $5000 back for the FUSC. Although I do like the idea of FUSC and that was one of my justification to buy the P3D+ model along with the performance acceleration and the badging. For P3D+ owner's, it would be nice to offer winter wheel tire upgrade solutions for free or some type of 4 yrs free maintenance and let us keep the FUSC. Then since the actual wholesale cost is not as much it is a win-win for Tesla and early loyal customers. We would then feel like Tesla is taking care of us make the Tesla followers even more loyal.

 

[Lunares]

So in California, supercharger costs 0.26c per kWh. We're going to round and just say $1 = 4 kWh.

$5000 is therefore equivalent to 20,000 kWh. As others with a P3D+ know, our efficiency isn't the best. Especially around town. Only around town driving and supercharging makes this worth it, so I'm going to assume a relatively poor efficiency of 350 Wh/mile and also compare to 250 Wh/mile.

20MWh at 350Wh/mile is 57,000 miles
20MWh at 250Wh/mile is 80,000 miles

So to make the $5k more efficient (ignoring time cost for doing it, money i can make by investing the $5k etc) AND assuming I charge all of my miles with supercharging, you are talking minimum 60k miles before it's worth it.

So yea eventually could it breakeven? Assuming I charge all the time with it? But for most people hell no.