Yes, In Florida, left my car at the airport (averaged 70 degrees daytime, 48 degrees overnight). I lost 10 miles of range per 24 hour period. I expect I would have lost more range if overnight temps were much lower. Fortunately, I was only gone 3 days, so I had plenty juice left to get home. I've got an 8 day trip coming up. I won't try it unless sleep mode comes back. With 4.1 when we had sleep mode, I only lost about 2 - 3 miles of range per 24 hour period with optimal temps.
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Yes, In Florida, left my car at the airport (averaged 70 degrees daytime, 48 degrees overnight). I lost 10 miles of range per 24 hour period. I expect I would have lost more range if overnight temps were much lower. Fortunately, I was only gone 3 days, so I had plenty juice left to get home. I've got an 8 day trip coming up. I won't try it unless sleep mode comes back. With 4.1 when we had sleep mode, I only lost about 2 - 3 miles of range per 24 hour period with optimal temps.
strider
Active Member
I wonder if they're including losses due to pack cooling and mgmt during charging?
I have a few questions about monitoring Vampire and charging losses.
1. Could the Model S (without the installation of additional devices, just software changes) measure and record how much energy you feed into the car? This is the number that you would read off of a wall meter if you have one. Lots of people in this and other threads measure this number
with their home meters and energy auditing devices, but seems to me that it would be better for the car to record this for you, both
for the sake of simplicity and because it would allow you to easily keep track of any charging you do away from home. I'm not sure if the car has the ability to measure this without added hardware - does anyone know?
2. Currently the only energy number the car displays on the trip meters is the total energy used while driving. You need this number when you are figuring out how far you can drive on a given state of charge, so it's an important number to know. On the other hand, it would be very interesting for the car to also keep a running tally of vampire and charging losses. If the car could measure and record total energy in, it could
obviously also calculate, record, and display vampire and charging energy losses. I think it would be interesting to have at least the option to see
these numbers on some display panel.
3. I recall reading somewhere in a 2006 Tesla paper that charging losses for Lithium Ion batteries are in the 16% range. The way I interpret this
is that to get .84 kwh of work out of the battery (propelling the car or powering electronics or whatever), you need to spend 1 kwh of energy in charging it. Some of the energy you start with is lost as heat. Just like you'll spend more energy rolling a stone up a hill than you could get out of the stone by rolling it back down again. Is this interpretation correct and are these numbers - 16% losses from charging - ball park right for the Model S batteries?
1. Could the Model S (without the installation of additional devices, just software changes) measure and record how much energy you feed into the car? This is the number that you would read off of a wall meter if you have one. Lots of people in this and other threads measure this number
with their home meters and energy auditing devices, but seems to me that it would be better for the car to record this for you, both
for the sake of simplicity and because it would allow you to easily keep track of any charging you do away from home. I'm not sure if the car has the ability to measure this without added hardware - does anyone know?
2. Currently the only energy number the car displays on the trip meters is the total energy used while driving. You need this number when you are figuring out how far you can drive on a given state of charge, so it's an important number to know. On the other hand, it would be very interesting for the car to also keep a running tally of vampire and charging losses. If the car could measure and record total energy in, it could
obviously also calculate, record, and display vampire and charging energy losses. I think it would be interesting to have at least the option to see
these numbers on some display panel.
3. I recall reading somewhere in a 2006 Tesla paper that charging losses for Lithium Ion batteries are in the 16% range. The way I interpret this
is that to get .84 kwh of work out of the battery (propelling the car or powering electronics or whatever), you need to spend 1 kwh of energy in charging it. Some of the energy you start with is lost as heat. Just like you'll spend more energy rolling a stone up a hill than you could get out of the stone by rolling it back down again. Is this interpretation correct and are these numbers - 16% losses from charging - ball park right for the Model S batteries?
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
16% charge loss must include losses in the charger since the lithium batteries should be much more efficient than that. The car should be able to calculate the power used for charging since it monitors current and voltage from the wall.
Per this thread on the Tesla Motors forum, 4.3 does not fix the vampire load issue. That's disappointing!
JRP3, thanks for the feedback. It's good to know that the car can measure the total energy put into it (less whatever losses are
incurred in the charging cable which I would imagine are minimal). I spoke to Walter at Tesla and he estimated charging losses are only around 8%. He said there are additional dissipative losses of around 10% when the battery discharges (does work), but these are already accounted for, at least for the losses incurred by driving.
I asked Walter to pass on the suggestion that the car report and log total energy in, as it evidently does for the Roadster. He said this has been something management has discussed but there are evidently no immediate plans to implement this.
I was away for 12 days and left the Model S plugged into my Blink charger so I could monitor the vampire losses. The car was in an unheated garage with outside temperatures ranging from 45-75. The total was 54 kwh (from the wall), for an average of 4.5 kwh per day. Way too much.
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
It was more than I expected for mild temperatures. I was expecting 10 rated miles/day lost range = 3kwh. So there is either a 50% charging penalty at the wall or the Model S is losing more than 10 miles of rated range per day.
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
Another data point:
Parked my car at O'Hare airport in Chicago 36 hours ago. My charge has dropped from 173 to 138 miles during that period. So, a mile per hour of vampire losses.
Yes, it was cold (30s daytime and 20s overnight), but this is ridiculous. I'm dealing with a family illness and may need to extend my trip, but I'm starting to worry about a dead Tesla if I do so.
Next time, I'll take my Audi.
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Parked my car at O'Hare airport in Chicago 36 hours ago. My charge has dropped from 173 to 138 miles during that period. So, a mile per hour of vampire losses.
Yes, it was cold (30s daytime and 20s overnight), but this is ridiculous. I'm dealing with a family illness and may need to extend my trip, but I'm starting to worry about a dead Tesla if I do so.
Next time, I'll take my Audi.
sent via Tapatalk
Do you have v4.3? It gives a more accurate reading on the range with a cold soaked battery. You should still be ok but I'm sure the added stress isn't needed. Hope everyone is ok.
If you do get really low and can't make it back, call the Chicago Service center and maybe they can tow you back to the service center and charge the car.
Once sleep mode is re-enabled, this should be less of an issue.
You will have a little more than than 138 miles left after the battery pack warms up. Having said that, the vampire load is very real, and there is no way anyone could leave the car unplugged for more of a couple of days and be worry free. I'm currently dealing with that issue with only 63 rated miles remaining. The good news is that there apparently is a way to put the car to sleep(not completely sure as I haven't woken her up yet). I will find out Monday.
Ok so here is all my data from a 8 day sit at the Airport. Weather in Atlanta was cool/cold nights in the 30s, daytime in the 60s. The car was parked outside, uncovered.
I wasn't super great about checking the range at regular intervals or as often as I should have. It was obvious after 2 days I would have plenty of range when I got back to the airport. Times are all local (and documented) over the DST change weekend, and traveling to CT from ET. An hour here and there really shouldn't change much. Underlined marks are when I arrived and left the airport parking lot. On Friday I range charged before I went to work. All ranges were pulled from my (Tesla Connect) Windows Phone app. I rounded to the nearest mile, and nearest 5 minutes, also garnered from my phone. I had only 1 instance of range gain, and that was only a single mile gained. The descriptors are where I was, and many are the SXSW interactive sessions I was attending.
Friday Mar 8
Work: 220 @ 8:00
Leave work: 217 @14:30
Home: 190 @ 15:05
Rangecharge @ 15:05
Leave home: 252 @17:10
Airport park: 230 @18:05
CENTRAL TIME ZONE
Austin: 225 @ 21:10
Bed: 224 @ 0:40 (actually Saturday morning)
SATURDAY March 9
TESLA: 215 @11:00
Elon Keynote: 216 @13:45
Home: 215 @ 17:45
SUNDAY March 10
DAYLIGHT SAVING TIME
NASA: 208 @ 11:55
Home: 205 @21:30
MONDAY March 11
Home: 199 @ 8:25
Bionic Athletes: 197@ 13:15
TUESDAY March 12
Home: 185 @ 8:20
Hobby: 184 @ 15:30
WEDNESDAY March 13
Home: 174 @ 8:20
FRIDAY March 15
Leaving Houston: 155@ 19:30
SATURDAY March 16
On plane Austin: 146@ 16:20
EASTERN TIME ZONE
At car Atlanta: 146@ 20:55
Home: 115 @ 22:50
I wasn't super great about checking the range at regular intervals or as often as I should have. It was obvious after 2 days I would have plenty of range when I got back to the airport. Times are all local (and documented) over the DST change weekend, and traveling to CT from ET. An hour here and there really shouldn't change much. Underlined marks are when I arrived and left the airport parking lot. On Friday I range charged before I went to work. All ranges were pulled from my (Tesla Connect) Windows Phone app. I rounded to the nearest mile, and nearest 5 minutes, also garnered from my phone. I had only 1 instance of range gain, and that was only a single mile gained. The descriptors are where I was, and many are the SXSW interactive sessions I was attending.
Friday Mar 8
Work: 220 @ 8:00
Leave work: 217 @14:30
Home: 190 @ 15:05
Rangecharge @ 15:05
Leave home: 252 @17:10
Airport park: 230 @18:05
CENTRAL TIME ZONE
Austin: 225 @ 21:10
Bed: 224 @ 0:40 (actually Saturday morning)
SATURDAY March 9
TESLA: 215 @11:00
Elon Keynote: 216 @13:45
Home: 215 @ 17:45
SUNDAY March 10
DAYLIGHT SAVING TIME
NASA: 208 @ 11:55
Home: 205 @21:30
MONDAY March 11
Home: 199 @ 8:25
Bionic Athletes: 197@ 13:15
TUESDAY March 12
Home: 185 @ 8:20
Hobby: 184 @ 15:30
WEDNESDAY March 13
Home: 174 @ 8:20
FRIDAY March 15
Leaving Houston: 155@ 19:30
SATURDAY March 16
On plane Austin: 146@ 16:20
EASTERN TIME ZONE
At car Atlanta: 146@ 20:55
Home: 115 @ 22:50
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mnx
2018 M3P
Thanks for sharing! I have a trip next week, but I don't think I have the balls to leave my car at the airport for 8 days(weather looks to be in the 30's and night and 40's during the day). It's >130km from the airport to my house.
I could probably do it, (esp. since there is a 70A charger along the route that I could use to top up on the way home) but I think I'll let this one pass and wait until sleep mode is re-enabled.
I could probably do it, (esp. since there is a 70A charger along the route that I could use to top up on the way home) but I think I'll let this one pass and wait until sleep mode is re-enabled.
carrerascott
FUEL FTR
This really needs to be resolved by Tesla... it's like having an ICE car with a leaky gas tank. Hoping 4.3 or future updates can help.
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