Predict speed of Tesla charging on CCS 350kW charger (with adapter)

[CameronB]

I saw that locally (Livermore, CA) new CCS chargers were installed that can go up to 150kW and a few that can go up to 350kW.

Knowing that Tesla has promised a CCS to Tesla adapter, I wonder what kind of max charge rates say a Model S/X will get at a 350kW (or even the 150kW) charger.

Guesses?

For whatever reason, I have personally never seen higher than 94kW in my Model S even under ideal conditions (~70 degree F at a Supercharger with no other Teslas charging and my starting SoC under 10%). I know in theory they can charge at 120kW or maybe a little more. Not in my car - but others, apparently . I wonder if the limitation is in the Tesla battery or the power being delivered. In other words, even though I have never seen more than 94kW at a Tesla Supercharger, if I got a CSS adapter, do you think I would see a higher charge rate if I plugged into one of these 150kW or 350kW CCS charging stations? Or nah?

 

[Lasttoy]

I see 120w often. A guy told me he was at a new charger, took 15 minutes to fully charge.
I asked my SC, they there were some built now,
BUT
They were smoking some cars so they turned them back to 120watts.
Funny, i was in Daytona, pulled inti Hilton to get some juice. I was sitting in car when 4 men knocked on window. The charge pole was on fire. I quickly removed my cord.
The man said i was first to smoke his chargers. I told him it was wired wrong. My car has duel inverters, it will take 80amps. It saw 100 amp breaker, but pole was wired for 50. It ruined his ploe.

 

[Derek Kessler]

Tesla has promised a CCS-to-Mennekes Type 2 adapter for their European fleet. There has been no word of a CCS adapter for the North American market.

 

[bob_p]

Tesla could charge vehicles faster today with the current V2 superchargers - but instead uses tapering to protect the battery pack, slowing down the charging power as the battery gains charge.

Faster charging will likely require a change to the battery pack design, so unless Tesla has already made those changes in the battery packs being produced now, current vehicles may not be able to charge faster, even if the connection can support more power.

Though, if Tesla does add more power to V3 superchargers, when a single charger is shared between two vehicles, both vehicles may be able to charge at the normal rates, without any slowdown because the charger is being shared.

 

[ewoodrick]

Tesla could charge vehicles faster today with the current V2 superchargers - but instead uses tapering to protect the battery pack, slowing down the charging power as the battery gains charge.

.

Tapering isn't a function of Tesla, it's a function of the batteries, they all do it.

 

[ewoodrick]

I saw that locally (Livermore, CA) new CCS chargers were installed that can go up to 150kW and a few that can go up to 350kW.

Knowing that Tesla has promised a CCS to Tesla adapter, I wonder what kind of max charge rates say a Model S/X will get at a 350kW (or even the 150kW) charger.

Guesses?

For whatever reason, I have personally never seen higher than 94kW in my Model S even under ideal conditions (~70 degree F at a Supercharger with no other Teslas charging and my starting SoC under 10%). I know in theory they can charge at 120kW or maybe a little more. Not in my car - but others, apparently . I wonder if the limitation is in the Tesla battery or the power being delivered. In other words, even though I have never seen more than 94kW at a Tesla Supercharger, if I got a CSS adapter, do you think I would see a higher charge rate if I plugged into one of these 150kW or 350kW CCS charging stations? Or nah?

You'll probably get the same as you have today. As you have said, even at a 120kW charger, you haven't seen over 95kW.

To charge faster, you have to have batteries and systems that can support faster charging.

At this point, there's a lot more marketing in higher charger speeds than reality.

 

[MorrisonHiker]

I saw that locally (Livermore, CA) new CCS chargers were installed that can go up to 150kW and a few that can go up to 350kW.

Knowing that Tesla has promised a CCS to Tesla adapter, I wonder what kind of max charge rates say a Model S/X will get at a 350kW (or even the 150kW) charger.

Guesses?

For whatever reason, I have personally never seen higher than 94kW in my Model S even under ideal conditions (~70 degree F at a Supercharger with no other Teslas charging and my starting SoC under 10%). I know in theory they can charge at 120kW or maybe a little more. Not in my car - but others, apparently . I wonder if the limitation is in the Tesla battery or the power being delivered. In other words, even though I have never seen more than 94kW at a Tesla Supercharger, if I got a CSS adapter, do you think I would see a higher charge rate if I plugged into one of these 150kW or 350kW CCS charging stations? Or nah?

Do you have a 75 kWh battery? If so, 94 kW sounds about right. If you have a larger battery then you should be able to get up to 115 to 120 kW if your battery is sufficiently "empty" and warm enough.

As for a CCS adapter, I would expect similar rates as you get when Supercharging.

 

[miimura]

In order to know how fast a car might charge on some future charger you have to know where the bottlenecks are. Some Tesla cars will never charge any faster than they do today on Superchargers. If your car can only charge at 94kW on today's Superchargers, it won't charge any faster on a different charging system. The Model 3 LR and the Model S and X 100D definitely have headroom to charge faster. However, increasing the charging speed on existing cars will necessarily require pushing more current. The charge port is one obvious place where there may be a limitation to increasing current. The new high power CCS chargers have liquid cooled connectors. This is to combat the heat generation at the connection of the charge port to the charger handle. Supercharging faster would need this as well before they could increase the current significantly. Superchargers can currently push 330-350 amps. The CCS standard goes to 500 amps. So, assuming that you could keep the connections cool enough, you could potentially charge a Tesla vehicle at up to 500 amps. The battery pack max voltage is about 400VDC. So the theoretical limit to charging a Tesla pack with a 500 amp CCS charger is 200kW.

 

[CameronB]

Do you have a 75 kWh battery? If so, 94 kW sounds about right. If you have a larger battery then you should be able to get up to 115 to 120 kW if your battery is sufficiently "empty" and warm enough.

As for a CCS adapter, I would expect similar rates as you get when Supercharging.

Yeah, 75D. Before I bought my car, I had not known that 75kWh batteries couldn't handle the same 120kW power as the larger batteries. If I had, might have influenced my decision. So no 75kWh Tesla batteries do much above 95kW then? Nothing particular to my car then, I guess.

 

[MorrisonHiker]

Yeah, 75D. Before I bought my car, I had not known that 75kWh batteries couldn't handle the same 120kW power as the larger batteries. If I had, might have influenced my decision. So no 75kWh Tesla batteries do much above 95kW then? Nothing particular to my car then, I guess.

Sounds like you might be able to get 98 or 99 kW but not for long: Has anybody with a Model S or X 75 kWh battery ever seen a charging rate of more than 100 kW?

 

[Derek Kessler]

Yeah, 75D. Before I bought my car, I had not known that 75kWh batteries couldn't handle the same 120kW power as the larger batteries. If I had, might have influenced my decision. So no 75kWh Tesla batteries do much above 95kW then? Nothing particular to my car then, I guess.

I hit a Supercharger last week with just 5 miles left in the battery (poor planning on my part). Even with basically all the headroom I could ever provide for the Supercharger, the best I saw was 94kW. It's a matter of the cell chemistry, design, and number — they can only take so much wattage individually, so there's a maximum rate for the entire pack as well. The larger capacity S and X packs simply have more cells, so they can take more wattage at once. Model 3 has a different cell and pack design and can take a faster charge even though it may have a smaller battery pack (helps that the smaller pack in the SR and MR take less time total as well).

 

[ucmndd]

Yeah, 75D. Before I bought my car, I had not known that 75kWh batteries couldn't handle the same 120kW power as the larger batteries. If I had, might have influenced my decision. So no 75kWh Tesla batteries do much above 95kW then? Nothing particular to my car then, I guess.

100kw is the effective max. 95-96 is about full-tilt for me. This is indeed true for all 75kwh batteries (with the tiny exception of a handful of “75” batteries that are actually software locked 85s sold for a very brief period).

 

[Derek Kessler]

(with the tiny exception of a handful of “75” batteries that are actually software locked 85s sold for a very brief period).

... and only in Europe.

 

[MorrisonHiker]

... and only in Europe.

...and New Zealand

 

[digistyl3]

In order to know how fast a car might charge on some future charger you have to know where the bottlenecks are. Some Tesla cars will never charge any faster than they do today on Superchargers. If your car can only charge at 94kW on today's Superchargers, it won't charge any faster on a different charging system. The Model 3 LR and the Model S and X 100D definitely have headroom to charge faster. However, increasing the charging speed on existing cars will necessarily require pushing more current. The charge port is one obvious place where there may be a limitation to increasing current. The new high power CCS chargers have liquid cooled connectors. This is to combat the heat generation at the connection of the charge port to the charger handle. Supercharging faster would need this as well before they could increase the current significantly. Superchargers can currently push 330-350 amps. The CCS standard goes to 500 amps. So, assuming that you could keep the connections cool enough, you could potentially charge a Tesla vehicle at up to 500 amps. The battery pack max voltage is about 400VDC. So the theoretical limit to charging a Tesla pack with a 500 amp CCS charger is 200kW.

Does this mean that Tesla would have to double the voltage to 800V in order to increase CCS-based supercharging to 250kW? What determines cell voltage exactly, and how does Porsche/Audi have a 800V battery?

 

[ucmndd]

Does this mean that Tesla would have to double the voltage to 800V in order to increase CCS-based supercharging to 250kW? What determines cell voltage exactly, and how does Porsche/Audi have a 800V battery?

Cell voltage is a byproduct of a battery’s physical chemistry. For lithium batteries, most have a nominal voltage of around 3.7 volts. That’s true with the 18650 cells used in a Model S battery pack.

To achieve a certain output voltage, the cells in the battery pack are arranged into a series of modules that combine the cells into an arrangement of serial and parallel connections necessary to achieve the desired characteristics. For example two 3.7 volt cells in a serial arrangement (end-to-end) have the potential of both cells combined (7.4 volt). Parallel cells in a system, on the other hand, maintain the same output voltage as the individual cells, but have double the current providing capacity.

Power = Voltage x Current, so If your battery pack is a fixed configuration at say 400 volts, You must adjust current to adjust charging speed. So a CCS charging station with a max current of 500 amps can charge your 400v battery at 500a x 400v = 200,000w = 200kw. And yes, you’d need to increase the voltage of the pack to increase that theoretical max speed (or modify the charger to provide more than 500 amps).

 

[miimura]

Does this mean that Tesla would have to double the voltage to 800V in order to increase CCS-based supercharging to 250kW? What determines cell voltage exactly, and how does Porsche/Audi have a 800V battery?

What you're really asking is how does Porsche / Audi assemble cells into a 800V pack. Well, if you start with 120Ah prismatic cells and you put 200 of them in series, you get a 88kWh pack that has a nominal voltage of 740VDC and a fully charged voltage of 840VDC. The problem is that if you want to charge that at 400kW, the cells need to survive a 4.5C charge rate. That is unlikely for a cell with high energy density. So, they might have to use high power density cells that are larger and heavier. It is doable if you choose that engineering trade-off.

 

[Feathermerchan]

We charge at 5C (on batteries that allow it) in the hobby world. Airplanes, helicopters, multicopters, etc.
On performance oriented aircraft we regularly discharge the batteries from 100% to 20% in 4 to 6 minutes.
That is an average of around 10C with bursts much higher. They are air cooled and come down warm but not overly so.

A couple of charge rate limitations that have not been disclosed here yet are temperature and cell voltage.
Charging at high currents does generate some heat in the battery. That has to be dealt with using cooling or by decreasing charge rate.
Anytime you put current into the battery the voltage of each cell rises. The voltage also rises as the battery becomes more charged. If the cell voltage is allowed to exceed about 4.2V, there is rupture and fire. So there is another limit to charge rate and also explains why every Lithium battery charger has to taper the charge rate as the cells near full charge.

 

[No2DinosaurFuel]

The only tesla car avialable right now that can maybe take advantage is the 100kwh pack models, i.e. X100D S100D or P100D.

If you look at the charge curve of the 100kwh pack it can go a hit higher than the max 120Kw charging right now. However dont expect it to be much higher due to the voltage limitation. My guess would be around 150KW

Maybe tesla will eventually move to 800V system, but right now I think they are at the limit of 400V charging system and the internal and external charging cable.

Unless tesla moves to superconductors as the charging cable the anything higher than 150Kw will require super thick cable at 400V.

 

[Snowstorm]

Unless the taper changes, which is unlikely due to chemistry, pack design and cooling, I don’t think boosting the 100kwh pack to a peak of 150kw from 120kw would matter much. It may shave a few minutes of the charge session since that rate can only be sustained for maybe 20-50% charge.

So a 10-80% Supercharging session may take 37min instead of say 40min

It is a “nice to have”