Prediction, in Which Year Will New Electric Vehicle Sales Exceed 50% in the United States "Poll"

[cwerdna]

I would want to see their methodology on EV pricing. ICE cars don't have tax credits like EVs do. So a brand new EV could potentially show a $7500 "depreciation" the day you walk off the lot but that's not actual price depreciation.

The weird thing about used EVs is that they have been selling at a premium. It's been cheaper for some time to buy a brand new EV than to buy the same model year used. People have been making money flipping their EVs and pocketing the tax credit. Not sure why this is. You would think people would just buy new while this price inefficiency exists.

The EV/PHEV tax credit situation is even more messy/complicated given the complexities listed with recent developments/cutoff dates at Tax Incentives including MANY that are no longer eligible for ANY tax credit (when purchasing) due to not meeting one of these requirements: assembly location, battery critical minerals, battery components, price. But then, the commercial lease loophole cropepd up. But, numerous automakers no longer allow purchasing an EV at end of lease, which is another long story.

Keep in mind before all the complications that began around Aug 2022, was what's listed at Federal Tax Credits for Electric and Plug-in Hybrid Cars. Tesla hit the 200K limit then started going thru phaseout. Teslas bought from 12/31/2019 thru end of 2022 were not elgiible for any Federal tax credit. GM EVs went thru that too. For GM, their EVs bought new from 4/1/2020 to end of 2022 also got 0 tax credit.

 

[dakhlkt22]

The EV/PHEV tax credit situation is even more messy/complicated given the complexities listed with recent developments/cutoff dates at Tax Incentives including MANY that are no longer eligible for ANY tax credit due to not meeting one of these requirements: assembly location, battery critical minerals, battery components, price.

Keep in mind before all the complications that began around Aug 2022, was what's listed at Federal Tax Credits for Electric and Plug-in Hybrid Cars. Tesla hit the 200K limit then started going thru phaseout. Teslas bought from 12/31/2019 thru end of 2022 were not elgiible for any Federal tax credit. GM EVs went thru that too. For GM, their EVs bought new from 4/1/2020 to to end of 2022 also got 0 tax credit.

Good point that there are used Teslas and some GMs that never had a federal tax credit. So those model years could be legitimately be considered as experiencing real price depreciation to the extent that new tax credits make people willing to pay less for a used one knowing they could buy new with a tax credit. In an efficient world where consumers have perfect information, you would expect consumers to not be willing to buy a used vehicle unless the price is less than a new one after tax credits and after actual depreciation that accounts for wear and tear. However, it seems like there may be other factors at work, like a dealer's ability to provide financing to a buyer, difficulty comparing features between model years, difficulty doing the calculations, etc.

 

[David_Cary]

Yeah - the "perfect" market.
I went out looking to buy used since I didn't qualify for the tax credit.
I couldn't get someone to sell me a 6 month old Y for $4k off new price despite a $7500 tax credit on new. A 6 month old Y is a risk of just being a bad car - my state is not terribly generous with lemon law buybacks like CA. So I needed somewhat of a discount. This with the used car having less than new car financing (I was cash but it limited the buyer pool). So I bought new.
When Tesla took 3 months to get a new car to people, this at least had some logic. But I got the car I wanted in 3 days.
What I learned is that Tesla's (Ys) at least are depreciating incredibly slowly. Like a Toyota. At least with a Hyundai, you got $3-4k per year. But Hyundai doesn't have the track record that Tesla does.
As we know, the Y is a high volume car based on another high volume car. The aftermarket parts situation going forward is going to be VW beetle-like. Why would I get a Hyundai that is smaller, lower range and less efficient for just a few $K less?
Anyway - depreciation outside of TC and big price moves by Tesla is very low on the 3 and Y - My wife's 3 is 4 years old and is about 25% - that is a Toyota number.
High fuel prices only make EV depreciation less. A $20k EV depreciating slowly, that is reliable is way cheap compared to fueling an ICE car at $4 gas, and $.13 kwh.

 

[cwerdna]

Ford to cut one shift at Michigan F-150 Lightning EV plant - Autoblog

Ford Motor said on Friday it will temporarily cut one of three shifts at the Michigan plant that builds its electric F-150 lightning pickup truck.

www.autoblog.com

 

[cwerdna]

Over Half Of EV Buyers Are Purchasing An ICE As Their Next Vehicle | Carscoops

The intriguing study shows that many EV owners are not exclusively married to the idea of EVs

www.carscoops.com

"An intriguing study has found that it’s difficult to keep EV owners exclusively committed to electric vehicles. Indeed, with the exception of Tesla owners, almost half of EV-owning households will purchase an internal combustion vehicle next.

A study from S&P Global Mobility reveals that the fuel type loyalty rate for mainstream brand EV households was sitting at 52.1% through July this year. While some may consider that sobering news, the study notes that its data doesn’t mean that roughly half of EVs are going to be replaced by a combustion vehicle. Instead, a household’s next purchase could be a replacement for a different vehicle they already have."

 

[dakhlkt22]

Over Half Of EV Buyers Are Purchasing An ICE As Their Next Vehicle | Carscoops

The intriguing study shows that many EV owners are not exclusively married to the idea of EVs

www.carscoops.com

"An intriguing study has found that it’s difficult to keep EV owners exclusively committed to electric vehicles. Indeed, with the exception of Tesla owners, almost half of EV-owning households will purchase an internal combustion vehicle next.

A study from S&P Global Mobility reveals that the fuel type loyalty rate for mainstream brand EV households was sitting at 52.1% through July this year. While some may consider that sobering news, the study notes that its data doesn’t mean that roughly half of EVs are going to be replaced by a combustion vehicle. Instead, a household’s next purchase could be a replacement for a different vehicle they already have."

Very interesting to see that different OEMs have different customer likelihoods of buying ICE or EV next. It either suggests the demographics of their EV buyers are different, or it suggests they have different satisfaction rates for their existing EVs.

 

[henderrj]

Very interesting to see that different OEMs have different customer likelihoods of buying ICE or EV next. It either suggests the demographics of their EV buyers are different, or it suggests they have different satisfaction rates for their existing EVs.

Or, perhaps they took a road trip and tried to use EA or one of the other charge systems. That would cure almost anyone from buying another EV! Hopefully the wide use of NACS will change that statistic as well.

 

[bruce4000]

Talking with people, I have noticed that if someone they know has a non Tesla EV and had a bad charging experience with EA, they assume all EVs and charging networks will have the same problems. They can’t believe that Tesla could be that much better. Like brand name and store brand cookies are about the same. hmmm seems like another point for Tesla educational mass market ads.

 

[cwerdna]

Someone posted this in TivoCommunity. Watching it now.

 

[David_Cary]

As a recent buyer, the non-Tesla market (part dealer, part manufacturer) won't lower their prices enough to compete.
At some point, there are concerns about new EVs from manufacturer's without experience. They have to be cheaper than Tesla for similar range, size and features - and they aren't even close.
The primary interview in that video is some ... elderly MB dealership owner. And then some of his old customers. You can imagine where the bias is. The other interview was some guy from Edmund's.
The video makes the point near the end of the video about Tesla cutting prices and that is a big part of everything. But that is only for people who make it that far into the video.
I can't get over hating the car dealer guy by the end of the video.

 

[Mengy]

I can't get over hating the car dealer guy by the end of the video.

He's the old guard and he's just super salty because he sees the writing on the wall. That being ICE cars are on the way out, which likely means his way of life is on the way out, along with today's dealership model possibly.

His angst is understandable from his point of view.

 

[David_Cary]

I do agree somewhat that angst is allowed. But you have to be annoyed to some extent that he has made insane amount of money selling cars to rich people. The skill of ass kissing is way over compensated in modern society. And now he is whining that his gravy train is coming to an end. Cry me a river. He isn't a struggling auto assembly line worker.

 

[cwerdna]

New Study Reveals American EV Confusion, Desire For Electric Toyotas

In a recent Ipsos poll, EV interest is stymied by cost, range, and charging concerns.

insideevs.com

 

[David_Cary]

The level of ignorance is outstanding. Which also shows that you could move the needle with a bit of education.
I am not sure what methodology they used for this survey - they don't say. The fact that they reference people with under $50k income is interesting. I am not sure that too many new cars in 2023 are bought by people who make under $50k. Makes me think the survey is not limited to probably new car buyers. Which really puts a damper on applicability.
Eventually word of mouth works. Whether it is pricing or ease of long distance travel. Once regions cross thresholds, people will become educated.

 

[Mengy]

I've got to be honest, with recent events, I'm beginning to agree with @cwerdna that we'll cross the 50% mark much later than I originally thought. What with GM delaying plant transitions, with Ford recalling all Mach-E's and lowering Lightning production, with Toyota and all of Japan so far behind the EV curve, and now with Tesla slowing production growth until the economy turns around, man o man....

Or maybe it will simply play out with Tesla and the Chinese hording the majority of EV marketshare while the OEM's all go bankrupt?

Either way things are not playing out like I thought they were going to a year ago.

 

[cwerdna]

I don't remember everything I've written before but the US isn't Norway (see Prediction, in Which Year Will New Electric Vehicle Sales Exceed 50% in the United States "Poll") and those who've predicted years on the earlier side (e.g. 2030 or earlier) have one or more of the following assumptions that are wrong/problematic:
- too high an estimate of the % of Americans who will actually buy new EVs (vote w/their wallet, not just survey responses). Right now, most of those buying/leasing EVs actually want them or want them enough to try them for a few years.
- too high an estimate of people who can charge at home or work
- too high an estimate of people will be willing to go through the trouble of installing EV charging at home
- % of people who are willing to put up with additional travel times on road trips
- that there isn't a supply constraint
- too high an estimate of Americans who will be willing to pay a price premium for an EV despite their downsides
- that enough Americans actually care about the environmental benefits, putting less $ into the hands of big oil or unfriendly countries to switch to BEVs
- misperception of the size of the US new auto market and the % of EV sales
- underestimate of headwinds from FUD coming from parties that stand to lose from BEVs taking off
- underestimate of public perception as we start seeing more house fires from EVs at home (e.g. defective EV or home electrical problems (e.g. shoddy electrical work, overheated wiring, dangerous panels (e.g. Zinsco or Federal Pacific), melted outlets, dangerous/defective EVSEs)). You can bet there can be someone in a family unit who might put their foot down and say absolutely not.
- underestimate of headwinds as we hear more about EV fires on public roads and parking lots & structures (e.g. how many thousands of gallons it took, reignition, batteries going off like firecrackers, etc.)
- overestimate of % of Americans who think like them. I bet most (90+%) of those answering 2030 or earlier own/lease at least one BEV already and at least 80% of them will likely lease/buy another BEV.

EVs can end up creating constraints for those who live in apartments. If you can't charge at work, then if you need to move, you need to find another place w/charging or decent/reasonably priced nearby public charging. What about rental houses? Need to rent a house and it doesn't already have a working J1772 EVSE or Tesla WC? Then what? It could be problematic and expensive to add EV charging, esp. if it's got only 100 amp or less service or has a Federal Pacific or Zinsco panel.

If you had charging at work and you quit/lose your job, well, there's no guarantee that next job will have free/reasonably priced and reliable (not broken, sufficient handles vs. vehicles, not overcrowded w/folks who won't move when done) charging.

I wouldn't be surprised if some EV fires spark more bans of EVs or specific models of EVs. Bolt bans (e.g. Bolt Parking Only) are still going on in 2023! (And yes, I had a Bolt and I've mentioned the ban I went thru at my own work before.)

And, many potential buyers will get scared away about out of warranty pack replacements costs. It's not replacement customer paid Tesla packs are cheap. The situation with Leafs ($5,499 for a 24 kWh pack announced in 2014 at Update on Nissan LEAF Battery Replacement - My Nissan Leaf Forum) hasn't gotten any better. In fact, it's up significantly from that. So, unless there's some miracle of much cheaper packs or (easily available) repairs (useless for gradual degradation), that's another big barrier. There are plenty of old vehicles on US roads: Average age of vehicles on U.S. roads hits 12.5 years, another record. My parents drive ones older than that: leftover 07 Altima Hybrid bought new in early 2008 and my former 06 Prius bought new in Jan 2006.

I'm sure I have more but can't remember/articulate them all now.

That said, if we have a 1970s-era type oil crisis with shortages, rationing, long gasoline lines coupled w/high gas prices, sure, there will be a lot more actual EV interest.

 

[henderrj]

I don't remember everything I've written before but the US isn't Norway (see Prediction, in Which Year Will New Electric Vehicle Sales Exceed 50% in the United States "Poll") and those who've predicted years on the earlier side (e.g. 2030 or earlier) have one or more of the following assumptions that are wrong/problematic:
- too high an estimate of the % of Americans who will actually buy new EVs (vote w/their wallet, not just survey responses). Right now, most of those buying/leasing EVs actually want them or want them enough to try them for a few years.
- too high an estimate of people who can charge at home or work
- too high an estimate of people will be willing to go through the trouble of installing EV charging at home
- % of people who are willing to put up with additional travel times on road trips
- that there isn't a supply constraint
- too high an estimate of Americans who will be willing to pay a price premium for an EV despite their downsides
- that enough Americans actually care about the environmental benefits, putting less $ into the hands of big oil or unfriendly countries to switch to BEVs
- misperception of the size of the US new auto market and the % of EV sales
- underestimate of headwinds from FUD coming from parties that stand to lose from BEVs taking off
- underestimate of public perception as we start seeing more house fires from EVs at home (e.g. defective EV or home electrical problems (e.g. shoddy electrical work, overheated wiring, dangerous panels (e.g. Zinsco or Federal Pacific), melted outlets, dangerous/defective EVSEs)). You can bet there can be someone in a family unit who might put their foot down and say absolutely not.
- underestimate of headwinds as we hear more about EV fires on public roads and parking lots & structures (e.g. how many thousands of gallons it took, reignition, batteries going off like firecrackers, etc.)
- overestimate of % of Americans who think like them. I bet most (90+%) of those answering 2030 or earlier own/lease at least one BEV already and at least 80% of them will likely lease/buy another BEV.

EVs can end up creating constraints for those who live in apartments. If you can't charge at work, then if you need to move, you need to find another place w/charging or decent/reasonably priced nearby public charging. What about rental houses? Need to rent a house and it doesn't already have a working J1772 EVSE or Tesla WC? Then what? It could be problematic and expensive to add EV charging, esp. if it's got only 100 amp or less service or has a Federal Pacific or Zinsco panel.

If you had charging at work and you quit/lose your job, well, there's no guarantee that next job will have free/reasonably priced and reliable (not broken, sufficient handles vs. vehicles, not overcrowded w/folks who won't move when done) charging.

I wouldn't be surprised if some EV fires spark more bans of EVs or specific models of EVs. Bolt bans (e.g. Bolt Parking Only) are still going on in 2023! (And yes, I had a Bolt and I've mentioned the ban I went thru at my own work before.)

And, many potential buyers will get scared away about out of warranty pack replacements costs. It's not replacement customer paid Tesla packs are cheap. The situation with Leafs ($5,499 for a 24 kWh pack announced in 2014 at Update on Nissan LEAF Battery Replacement - My Nissan Leaf Forum) hasn't gotten any better. In fact, it's up significantly from that. So, unless there's some miracle of much cheaper packs or (easily available) repairs (useless for gradual degradation), that's another big barrier. There are plenty of old vehicles on US roads: Average age of vehicles on U.S. roads hits 12.5 years, another record. My parents drive ones older than that: leftover 07 Altima Hybrid bought new in early 2008 and my former 06 Prius bought new in Jan 2006.

I'm sure I have more but can't remember/articulate them all now.

That said, if we have a 1970s-era type oil crisis with shortages, rationing, long gasoline lines coupled w/high gas prices, sure, there will be a lot more actual EV interest.

There's a lot here, I'm just going to comment on a few.

The people who buy new cars are not the people who live in apartments, with some exceptions. Those with money are more educated, more likely to move to new things. When the cost to benefit ratio is clearly on the side of EVs people with money are going to start buying them. Since that's where the majority of your new car sales come from, you'll see the apartment dwellers getting really good deals on used ice vehicles. So they won't change until either the cost of fuel goes too high or the supply of cheap ice vehicles goes away.

I think everything goes down to supply. The projections where the supply of battery cells will be enough for the vast majority of new car sales by 2027. Will a manufacturers match that? I used to think they'd be anxious to, but I'm wavering on that now.

I'm going to have to agree with you as to the economy having a greater effect than any of us would have thought a few years ago. There's a lot of negatives said about millennials, most of it's not true. But, with them, there is a lot of Truth in Tytler's profound observation: "A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the majority discovers it can vote itself largess out of the public treasury.". The idiotic response to the covid scare, particularly the government opening wide the financial doors, shows that the majority of young Americans are ignorant of these truths enough to be more than willing to hang themselves. So, yes, the economy is going to have an outsized influence as to the adoption of battery electric vehicles. An all two negative influence.

 

[cwerdna]

The people who buy new cars are not the people who live in apartments, with some exceptions. Those with money are more educated, more likely to move to new things. When the cost to benefit ratio is clearly on the side of EVs people with money are going to start buying them. Since that's where the majority of your new car sales come from, you'll see the apartment dwellers getting really good deals on used ice vehicles. So they won't change until either the cost of fuel goes too high or the supply of cheap ice vehicles goes away.

Looks ilke you live in OK. Perhaps you're unaware of some places with very high housing prices. Look at https://www.sfchronicle.com/realestate/article/fremont-home-prices-18380476.php (try San Francisco is no longer the most expensive large Bay Area city to buy a home if you get hit by a paywall), for instance. Go use Zillow or Redfin and take a look at housing prices in Bay Area cities. Look at Mountain View 1-bed apartment rents jump above San Francisco.

I posted what I observed driving thru an apartment complex garage right near a bunch of tech companies a few months ago at Prediction, in Which Year Will New Electric Vehicle Sales Exceed 50% in the United States "Poll".

In a post at Chevybolt.org (you'd need an account there to see it), I wrote this about a permanent remote co-worker (software engineer, my company pays very well) of mine who DOES want an EV:
"So, I spoke to my permanent remote co-worker (living in So Cal) today who flew up to our offices for a going away event for someone.

She'd been wanting an EV for awhile and I asked what was up with her not being able to charge at home. She owns a condo. She claimed that in order to add charging, they'd be required to add solar and metered EVSEs for each charging spot, etc. In the end, it would be a lot of trouble. I wouldn't be surprised if there are are CA, county or local ordinances that might actually require the solar.

I'm sure it'd need to involve her HOA, as well.

She could drive to our company's LA offices for free level 2 EV juice but none of our team is there and she would rarely work with anyone there anyway. She said with traffic it's like an hour each way so not worth it to her vs. just WFH that she's been doing."

She previously was open to getting a Tesla (but wasn't thrilled about the prospect of giving $ to Elon) but once the whole Twitter dumpster fire happened, the door's closed for her: no Teslas.

In Bay Area, 0% of homes were cheaper to buy than rent, study says

It's more than twice as expensive to buy a home than to rent in the Bay Area, which had the largest homeownership premium than any other major U.S. metropolitan area, and where 0% of homes were cheaper to buy than rent, according to a new study.

www.ktvu.com

"And topping the list was San Jose, where a typical home was 165% more expensive to purchase than to rent. The study calculated the median estimated monthly mortgage payment in San Jose to be $11,049. That’s compared with a median estimated monthly rent of $4,176.

San Francisco followed, with it costing 139% more to buy than rent (the analysis used the term ownership premium). San Francisco had a median estimated monthly mortgage payment of $10,892, compared with a median estimated monthly rent of $4,552."

So Cal is also expensive: Southern California city ranked as the most expensive place to live in U.S..

I think everything goes down to supply. The projections where the supply of battery cells will be enough for the vast majority of new car sales by 2027. Will a manufacturers match that? I used to think they'd be anxious to, but I'm wavering on that now.

Typical US new US auto sales are on the order of 13.x to 17 million units per year. You really believed that by 2027 there'd be enough supply for automakers to be able to sell 6.5 to 8.5 million BEVs in the US all while China and Europe continue their ramp up and are both pretty serious?

 

[henderrj]

Looks ilke you live in OK. Perhaps you're unaware of some places with very high housing prices. Look at https://www.sfchronicle.com/realestate/article/fremont-home-prices-18380476.php (try San Francisco is no longer the most expensive large Bay Area city to buy a home if you get hit by a paywall), for instance. Go use Zillow or Redfin and take a look at housing prices in Bay Area cities. Look at Mountain View 1-bed apartment rents jump above San Francisco.

I posted what I observed driving thru an apartment complex garage right near a bunch of tech companies a few months ago at Prediction, in Which Year Will New Electric Vehicle Sales Exceed 50% in the United States "Poll".

In a post at Chevybolt.org (you'd need an account there to see it), I wrote this about a permanent remote co-worker (software engineer, my company pays very well) of mine who DOES want an EV:
"So, I spoke to my permanent remote co-worker (living in So Cal) today who flew up to our offices for a going away event for someone.

She'd been wanting an EV for awhile and I asked what was up with her not being able to charge at home. She owns a condo. She claimed that in order to add charging, they'd be required to add solar and metered EVSEs for each charging spot, etc. In the end, it would be a lot of trouble. I wouldn't be surprised if there are are CA, county or local ordinances that might actually require the solar.

I'm sure it'd need to involve her HOA, as well.

She could drive to our company's LA offices for free level 2 EV juice but none of our team is there and she would rarely work with anyone there anyway. She said with traffic it's like an hour each way so not worth it to her vs. just WFH that she's been doing."

She previously was open to getting a Tesla (but wasn't thrilled about the prospect of giving $ to Elon) but once the whole Twitter dumpster fire happened, the door's closed for her: no Teslas.

In Bay Area, 0% of homes were cheaper to buy than rent, study says

It's more than twice as expensive to buy a home than to rent in the Bay Area, which had the largest homeownership premium than any other major U.S. metropolitan area, and where 0% of homes were cheaper to buy than rent, according to a new study.

www.ktvu.com

"And topping the list was San Jose, where a typical home was 165% more expensive to purchase than to rent. The study calculated the median estimated monthly mortgage payment in San Jose to be $11,049. That’s compared with a median estimated monthly rent of $4,176.

San Francisco followed, with it costing 139% more to buy than rent (the analysis used the term ownership premium). San Francisco had a median estimated monthly mortgage payment of $10,892, compared with a median estimated monthly rent of $4,552."

So Cal is also expensive: Southern California city ranked as the most expensive place to live in U.S..


Typical US new US auto sales are on the order of 13.x to 17 million units per year. You really believed that by 2027 there'd be enough supply for automakers to be able to sell 6.5 to 8.5 million BEVs in the US all while China and Europe continue their ramp up and are both pretty serious?

I lived and worked in the Seattle Tacoma area for four decades, so I know how crowded it can be. I've also lived in apartments where it was difficult to charge, although I didn't own an EV yet, it was part of the discussion. Still, if one wants it bad enough, there's a way.

Lost track of the article but a while ago somebody put together all of the projections of all the different manufacturers for the completion of their battery factories, and full ramp up time. In 2027 there will be enough batteries made, should all that come to pass, to have enough for 97% of the new vehicles sold in the United states. Obviously as much as half of those might not get builtn or will be lagging. But more likely most of them will be producing. The batteries will not be the problem, I'm now seriously doubting that the manufacturers will be ready by then.

As to her turning up her nose at Tesla because she doesn't like Elon musk, as long as she buys some EV I guess I'm okay. But really, what's more important, a person's feelings about some guy and his Twitter purchase, or contributing your share to saving the environment and moving to the new paradigm?

 

[cwerdna]

BTW, regarding new vs. used cars or whatever, I've seen survey results like these and it's been going on for years:
Most Americans Lack Reserve Cash to Cover $500 Emergency: Survey - from 2016

From 2023:
Nearly Half of Americans Have Less Than $500 in Savings — Here’s How You Can Beat That Trend
Bankrate's Annual Emergency Fund Report | Bankrate
63% of workers unable to pay a $500 emergency expense, survey finds. How employers may help change that

Yet despite all this, 13+ million new automobiles are sold (a decent % of them leased) each year in the US.

As to her turning up her nose at Tesla because she doesn't like Elon musk, as long as she buys some EV I guess I'm okay. But really, what's more important, a person's feelings about some guy and his Twitter purchase, or contributing your share to saving the environment and moving to the new paradigm?

For me, the door is also almost completely closed in ever considering buying or leasing a Tesla vehicle or energy product because of Elno's behavior once he bought Twitter. Big Tesla Price cuts in the U.S. / EUV demand is post that you can see which basically says why for me. It's coupled w/the the utter disrespect and micromanagement. Since I work in tech, those ex-Twitter employees are in a sense distant colleagues of mine.

From the minimal amount I've talked to my permanent remote co-worker about this, that's what pushed her over the edge. But her thoughts didn't influence mine on this and vice versa in any way.

At the moment, she still has no BEV. But, my point is that her charging situation is a significant barrier right now. She's NOT alone. BTW, she graduated from MIT (much better university than mine) and from her LinkedIn profile, she has both a bachelor's and master's degree from there. I went to a top UC school but only have a BS degree.