Production vs. Conversion, Model S Drivetrain, EVTV coverage etc.

[paco3791]

Based on this the S60 with its lower torque and acceleration is the model to own!? indeed, have not noticed any reports of drive train change done by 60 owners -- it has been mostly P85 and 85s (granted these are all anecdotal but still...)

I'm a 60 owner and I've had my drive unit replaced. had about 8-10k miles on the first one and it had developed the "milling" sound, have about 5-7k on the new one with no issues so far. I'm not sure it matters though since at the low end, that the article the OP references is claiming to be worried about, there probably isn't much difference between an 85 and a 60, especially since the drive units are identical between the non performance models.

 

[stopcrazypp]

I think a lot the confusion is because the PEM/inverter is now a single unit with the motor (both are round cylinders that are replaced as a single unit together). With the Roadster, the replacement rate of the PEM is a lot higher than the motor, and I suspect the same with the Model S, except now the motor+PEM are a single unit.

Also, I imagine a lot of replacements are related to the "balloon" sound (which is likely interference/feedback in the motor controller) and not really outright failures.

 

[brianman]

What's a drivetrian? (Thread titles with typos tweak me wrong.)

 

[Great Dane]

I Know What you mean, Brainman LOL

 

[mknox]

Jack is very anti Tesla. He feels people don't give him a godlike status he thinks he deserves.

I actually didn't get that from the article, but I don't follow him too closely. He certainly rambles quite a bit, but when he got down to the drivetrain issues, I thought what he was saying made some sense. For full disclosure, I've had mine replaced for the loud whine under power, and I'm now starting to get the clunk-clunk when going between power and re-gen. No one knows for sure how many have gone "bad", but it would seem to be enough to get people talking about it.

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What's a drivetrian? (Thread titles with typos tweak me wrong.)

Aw crap! I hate that too. It's even worse when I do it :redface:

 

[eepic]

One interesting note I just thought of is that there is a solution that could* nearly halve the instantaneous torque strain on the drivetrain components. All-wheel drive. If the torque strain is halved, it's possible the wear-per-distance is much less than half of what it is now, so each drive unit could last much longer. However, I put an * because I do believe they'll have different gear ratios for the front/back drivetrains optimized for different velocities to enhance overall efficiency.

Just theorycrafting here, but it could be a factor in why all MX will be AWD, and perhaps the same for MS going forward from some point in the future. M3 could have less acceleration + lower weight so won't need this.

 

[BornToFly]

Between the Roadster, and all the beta testing I'm sure they did with the Model S before release, if this was a major problem, it would have been discovered long ago. It doesn't mean a small percentage can't be affected, and if it is a small problem, I'm sure Tesla is working on making it even smaller or non-existent. I'm sure Elon will be asked about it during the next post-Earnings call.

 

[yobigd20]

I seriously doubt this costs Tesla any substantial amount of money. That's because they ship the replaced unit back to the factory and then it's fixed and refurbished and fully restored and sent back off to another service center to swap in for the next guy that has an issue. And this repeats. Therefore, besides the initial cost of the number of first simultaneous replacements, tesla spends very little to replace each drive unit. It's not like their dropping $15k per unit. The units that are being swapped in are refurbs, not new ones. Probably cost a Tesla a couple hundred bucks to repair. It's pocket change.

 

[ThosEM]

Can anyone refute these claimed facts?
- Tesla has had transmission problems since the Roadster, where a single speed version replaced an initial two speed that broke a lot.
- Someone was charged $15k for an out of warranty drive train replacement.
- Someone drove a noisy unit to failure and was towed for a repair.
- There are 26 replacements on the drive train poll thread.
- Currently at 18000 km, I have occasionally noticed a light clunk between power and regen.

I don't mind admitting, this is worrying and I'll certainly shell out for extended warranty...

 

[Klaus]

That is an understatement. Why in the world he bought a Model S is beyond me.

because without him owning a Tesla his negative opinion would be instantly exposed as being driven by other motives ...

[snarky sarcasm mode off]

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What's a drivetrian? (Thread titles with typos tweak me wrong.)

The title is supposed to match Jack's imaginary friend he calls "Brain" (sic) in his article.

After our conversation, Brain and I looked about the Internet and Brain came up with two very interesting reports ...

 

[nwdiver]

IMO these drivetrain issues are overblown... yes, the inverter on my P85 makes a little noise... so? It's still an order of magnitude quieter than any ICE... There have been a few failures but that appears to be <0.1%...

 

[AndY1]

The title is supposed to match Jack's imaginary friend he calls "Brain" (sic) in his article.

He's not an imaginary friend. It's his real friend Brian, who he calls Brain:

 

[jerry33]

- Tesla has had transmission problems since the Roadster, where a single speed version replaced an initial two speed that broke a lot.

The very early Roadsters had a two speed transmission. That didn't work, so they went to a single speed model. No drivetrain problems since.

- Someone was charged $15k for an out of warranty drive train replacement.

Someone claimed vitamin C cured his cold. Not very factual.

- Someone drove a noisy unit to failure and was towed for a repair.

Tesla sometimes will tow the car if there is no valet person available.

- There are 26 replacements on the drive train poll thread.

There are almost 50,000 cars delivered, and most of the drivetrain replacements appear to be caused by inverter noise.

- Currently at 18000 km, I have occasionally noticed a light clunk between power and regen.

Tesla has taken good care of the their customers. I'm sure they'll take care of you.

- I don't mind admitting, this is worrying and I'll certainly shell out for extended warranty

No problems at 27,000 miles. I have the extended warranty but I'm not worried. Tesla has a history of doing the right thing.

 

[Knobby]

Can anyone refute these claimed facts?
- Tesla has had transmission problems since the Roadster, where a single speed version replaced an initial two speed that broke a lot.
- Someone was charged $15k for an out of warranty drive train replacement.
- Someone drove a noisy unit to failure and was towed for a repair.
- There are 26 replacements on the drive train poll thread.
- Currently at 18000 km, I have occasionally noticed a light clunk between power and regen.

I don't mind admitting, this is worrying and I'll certainly shell out for extended warranty...

Who's got a Model S that's out of warranty? They haven't been out long enough. I don't believe anyone's been charged anything, yet.

 

[Al Sherman]

Who's got a Model S that's out of warranty? They haven't been out long enough. I don't believe anyone's been charged anything, yet.

Mileage?

 

[Tasdevil]

I hope this problem is fixed before model X comes out... I guess a closer check would be to see if any RHD model Ses have this issue... Should know by New Years.

 

[mhpr262]

I agree that the problem can't be so widespread. If a significant percentage of the tens of thousands of cars that have been delivered so far suffered from the same issue, this and the other forum would be flooded by outraged owners. Looking an issue up online must be one of the first things people do nowadays when they have problems. We would have at least a couple dozen owners here yammering.

After the disaster with the roadster gearbox Elon must have had the Model S gearbox tested to its limits and beyond dozens of times over.

I suspect it is just a batch of faulty parts - much like the bad batch of ball bearings BMW installed in the shaft final drives of some of their motorcycles a few years ago which caused a lot of problems. The damage to the reputation was far worse though, people in my motorcycle forum are STILL tweaking the BMW riders' noses about it.

Maybe it actually is a bad batch of motor shaft ball bearings wearing out due to bad quality - that would explain why none of the cars has it from the start, why it apparently takes some time for the issue to develop and I suspect it would also be consistent with the clunk and milling noise people have reported. When the pinion on the motor shaft and the other gear wheel are no longer aligned they have more play and wear out in hurry, with a lot of friction (this from my experience as a much suffering driver of brushless electric 1/10th scale RC cars)

 

[AmpedRealtor]

Can anyone refute these claimed facts?
- Tesla has had transmission problems since the Roadster, where a single speed version replaced an initial two speed that broke a lot.
- Someone was charged $15k for an out of warranty drive train replacement.
- Someone drove a noisy unit to failure and was towed for a repair.
- There are 26 replacements on the drive train poll thread.
- Currently at 18000 km, I have occasionally noticed a light clunk between power and regen.

I don't mind admitting, this is worrying and I'll certainly shell out for extended warranty...

The person who was charged $15,000 for an out of warranty drive unit is named Goldie Bhullar. He is a livery driver, I believe in the SF Bay Area. He posted a thread at TM forums, since removed, complaining that he was charged $15,000 for a drive unit and $8,500 for failed supercharger hardware out of warranty. He uses his car for commercial purposes and so was declined by Tesla when he asked to buy the extended warranty.

That is the only one I know of, and only because he posted at TM.

 

[sranger]

That is an understatement. Why in the world he bought a Model S is beyond me.

Actually Jack and his wife LOVE their Model S... I spent last weekend with them and they love the car....

I personally do not think this is a big issue, but there have been enough issues to watch it closely...

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Either that, or he's just saying he bought one to make his gripes seem more credible. It's easy to lie on the Internet.

Well I saw his wife driving this imaginary car last weekend....

 

[Doug_G]

Also, I imagine a lot of replacements are related to the "balloon" sound (which is likely interference/feedback in the motor controller) and not really outright failures.

Tesla does not replace drive trains because of the balloon sound. Plus as I understand it, the noise is coming from the contactors in the battery pack, not the drive train.

- Tesla has had transmission problems since the Roadster, where a single speed version replaced an initial two speed that broke a lot.

It's irrelevant. They came up with the current design and the problems were completely solved. All 1.0 Roadsters were retrofitted with the new gearbox. Model S gearbox is a bigger version of the improved Roadster gearbox.

- Currently at 18000 km, I have occasionally noticed a light clunk between power and regen.

Drive train lash is a common thing, lots of manual transmission ICE cars do the same thing. Roadster has a little clunk between power and regen. Normal.