Pure BEV Dogma

[JRP3]

There seems to be a real case of "EV envy" among some Volt owners, and they seem to feel attacked when the hybrid nature of the vehicle is openly discussed. I would have no issues owning a Volt and no problem with calling it the plug in hybrid that it is. I've spent a lot of time defending the Volt and explaining to people what it really is and is not. When members of the general public say it's an EV that only goes 40 miles I can quickly explain that it's actually a hybrid that can go 40 miles fully electric then the gas motor kicks in. The details of how that motor operates and how it compares to other PHEV's is meaningless to them, and largely irrelevant to the big picture.

 

[ggies07]

If GM would have made it with a battery that goes 100 miles and then gas kicks in, then I would be all for it until I can afford an all EV that goes over 200 miles like the Model 3 will. There is a need between the LEAF and the Model S for range, but this puny 40 miles stuff is a waste.

 

[Jeff N]

The Ford Energi twins will not start the engine in "EVNow mode" as stated by Jeff N, but they will in "normal mode." I don't know about completely flooring the accelerator in EVNow mode. That might override EVNow and start the engine so you don't get flattened by a truck while looking for the mode button. :smile: I will have to look that up.

The EVNow mode is persistent across shutdown/startup. It will not start the engine even if you floor the accelerator to its top speed but if you request more power than the 67 kW (89 HP) upper limit that it's battery can provide it will show a message in the driver's display asking you to push a button on the steering wheel if you want the gas engine to start up. When driven only on battery in EVNow mode it has the 1/4 mile and 0-60 mph performance characteristics of a 4 cylinder Ford Pinto econobox from 30+ years ago but that still puts it within the CARB definition of a Full-Performance Electric Vehicle which is highway capable. That fits GM's EREV paper definition.

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If GM would have made it with a battery that goes 100 miles and then gas kicks in, then I would be all for it until I can afford an all EV that goes over 200 miles like the Model 3 will. There is a need between the LEAF and the Model S for range, but this puny 40 miles stuff is a waste.

For your purposes....

It works for me until I get my model 3.

I drove 94.4 miles on battery today at 280 Wh per mile (wall) or 121 MPGe EV and then an addition 19.7 at 55 mpg for a combined 100 MPGe by charging at home, work, and during lunch at a restaurant. In 3-4 weeks I'm planning a multi-state road trip.

 

[art]

first gen volt should have been called volt 65-35 gen 2 volt 80-20 or what ever average mileage it turns out to be? for 65% electric and 80% electric.

 

[art]

Gm should sell it this way. the average driving person will pay about .75 cents a gallon equivalent 65% of the time. the other 35% of the time the going rate for gasoline per gallon in there area. and then it changes for the next gen volt.

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gen 3 or 4 volt? volt 100

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

But a plug-in series hybrid seems to be all that the term EREV is trying to describe (except with a bunch of asterisks to describe how the volt actually works) So why not just call it what it always was? A plug-in series hybrid?
So the definition of EREV is: "A plugin vehicle that has full performance* under electric only mode** and then only uses the gas generator to refill the battery***"
*Unless the battery pack is too cold at which point gas will be burned to heat it up
** Gas generator can randomly come on at intervals to keep its systems running and lubricated if not activated for an extended period of time
*** Unless driving above 70 mph in charge sustaining mode at which point it couples with the wheels
Therefore, the definition of EREV is so specific that it only describes the Volt. So it's a useless term unless you remove the asterisks at which point the Volt wouldn't be an EREV. Call the Volt a PHEV and if they want to known more technical specs, explain it to them.

P.S. I'll be giving an IEEE Webinar on EVs in a few weeks and guess what I'm classifying the Volt as...

http://www.media.gm.com/content/dam/Media/microsites/product/volt/docs/paper.pdf

You say potato. I say, read that document and then tell me potato. Especially on page 4 where they proposed a definition of E-REV be:

“A vehicle that functions as a full-performance battery electric vehicle when energy is available from an onboard RESS and having an auxiliary energy supply that is only engaged when the RESS energy is not available.”

(RESS=rechargeable energy storage system)
... which makes no mention of serial hybrid operation and instead only emphasizes that it functions as a full-performance BEV in EV mode.

PS When will the 70mph meme die? In CS mode the Volt couples the engine when the car estimates that it'll be more efficient to do so.

 

[scottf200]

I've read some very thoughtful remarks by some people so I did not intend to categorize all posters in this thread in the same light.

This is an error many Volt owners keep making, I don't think any of us are intending to "put it down" when we try to point out that the car is a type of hybrid and not an EV.

I think that sentences is quite nebulous/loose. The Volt's system is unique as pointed about above. Dismissing that and just "PHEV" generalizing it is because it has a fill cap is a "put down" IMO. It is pretty transparent when that happens by certain people. The smugness shows through.

Those numbers show that 38% of Volt miles are powered by gasoline, something no EV can claim. If you're saying you've never used the ICE in your Volt then why did you buy a hybrid with an ICE?

I made no such claim. I was pointing out 572.5 million electric-grid/solar miles. When I first got my Volt I bought it in another state and drove it back to my home state. For the first year I was pretty careful about limiting my gas usage (see chart below). After that I just drove it on road trips (@ 40 MPG) and for long work/play/sports days 60+ miles. Obviously with my Model X the long days are still easy to accomplish. Even looking forward to some road trips but having to stay on the SC railroad is a bit concerning.

 

[qwk]

It is really bizarre how Volt, and hybrid coupled together in the same sentence brings out so many posters who will argue that the Volt isn't a hybrid, until they are blue in the face. Some of the posts make absolutely no sense at all.

No one, ever....is going to drive more electric miles in a Volt, than they would in a vehicle that is a true EV. That is because it's impossible to burn gasoline in an EV. I'm sure someone here is going to argue otherwise, but no Volt(even brand spanking new) will come with a dry fuel tank. Once there is fuel in the tank, the. Volt will find a way to burn it. That's what it was designed to do!

Having said that, there is nothing wrong with someone choosing to drive the Volt. Most people will certainly use much less gasoline than they would otherwise, unless they are a pure EV household.

 

[Jeff N]

It is really bizarre how Volt, and hybrid coupled together in the same sentence brings out so many posters who will argue that the Volt isn't a hybrid, until they are blue in the face.

That's not me. I'm perfectly happy to say the volt is a plugin hybrid and therefore a hybrid.

I think what's really bizarre is how GM, Volt and EREV coupled together in the same sentence brings out so many people who will argue that EREV is a Volt-specific asterisk-laden marketing gimmick that does not communicate anything useful, until they are blue in the face. Some of the posts make absolutely no sense at all.

 

[RobStark]

I think what's really bizarre is how GM, Volt and EREV coupled together in the same sentence brings out so many people who will argue that EREV is a Volt-specific asterisk-laden marketing gimmick

Since we now know that under certain conditions the Volt uses its ICE to directly engage the transmission to move the car forward it not really that either.

A BMW i3 Rex is an EREV. Volt is a PHEV with the highest AER.

 

[JRP3]

I think that sentences is quite nebulous/loose. The Volt's system is unique as pointed about above. Dismissing that and just "PHEV" generalizing it is because it has a fill cap is a "put down" IMO. It is pretty transparent when that happens by certain people. The smugness shows through.

I'm not sure it's smugness, maybe more of a frustration over what seems to be a strained attempt to make the Volt more special than it is. The Volt system is unique in detail but not in general. One can probably dissect any drive train far enough to call it unique. The details of the Prius hybrid are probably different than the Honda hybrid, yet they are both hybrids. As has been pointed out to me other vehicles now fit the GM definition of the Volt. The important aspects of the Volt are that it can drive about 40 miles in EV mode and then it has an ICE for backup. Call it a PHEV40. Simple, direct, accurate.

Consider this. Say GM makes a version of the Volt using more energy dense cells but lower C rate. Potentially this could give the Volt 60 miles of EV only mode but say the ICE would kick on after about 10 seconds of full throttle acceleration and after 95mph, to help support the pack voltage and keep the C rate load down, even if the pack were fully charged. This vehicle would in reality provide many more EV only miles driven, but because of the ICE support under rare conditions, would fail the GM definition of EREV. Would GM need to create yet another special term for it? PHEV60 would designate it quite well and differentiate it from the PHEV40 Volt in a way that really matters and the way the general public would understand. I think the GM created term caused more confusion than anything else. If they had instead called it a PHEV, targeted the Prius, and declared it a better hybrid, with a plug, much of the confusion, and attacks from certain sections of the media, would have been greatly reduced. Not to mention this entire discussion would not even be happening.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

Since we now know that under certain conditions the Volt uses its ICE to directly engage the transmission to move the car forward it not really that either.

A BMW i3 Rex is an EREV. Volt is a PHEV with the highest AER.

http://www.media.gm.com/content/dam/Media/microsites/product/volt/docs/paper.pdf

“A vehicle that functions as a full-performance battery electric vehicle when energy is available from an onboard RESS and having an auxiliary energy supply that is only engaged when the RESS energy is not available.”

An E-REV doesn't have to be a serial hybrid.

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I'm not sure it's smugness, maybe more of a frustration over what seems to be a strained attempt to make the Volt more special than it is. The Volt system is unique in detail but not in general. One can probably dissect any drive train far enough to call it unique. The details of the Prius hybrid are probably different than the Honda hybrid, yet they are both hybrids. As has been pointed out to me other vehicles now fit the GM definition of the Volt.

http://www.media.gm.com/content/dam/Media/microsites/product/volt/docs/paper.pdf

“A vehicle that functions as a full-performance battery electric vehicle when energy is available from an onboard RESS and having an auxiliary energy supply that is only engaged when the RESS energy is not available.”

The important aspects of the Volt are that it can drive about 40 miles in EV mode and then it has an ICE for backup. Call it a PHEV40. Simple, direct, accurate.

http://www.media.gm.com/content/dam/Media/microsites/product/volt/docs/paper.pdf

“A vehicle that functions as a full-performance battery electric vehicle when energy is available from an onboard RESS and having an auxiliary energy supply that is only engaged when the RESS energy is not available.”

Why do so many people want a pure BEV? Because they don't want to burn gasoline. Because they like the way electric cars drive.
Why do many Volt owners consider the E-REV distinction important? Because they don't want to burn gasoline. Because they like the way electric cars drive.

I do not understand how people cannot recognize the important distinction between E-REV and conventional PHEV.

 

[scaesare]

Simply posting the same paper and same quote multiple times in response to people's points generally isn't considered helpful.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

Consider this. Say GM makes a version of the Volt using more energy dense cells but lower C rate. Potentially this could give the Volt 60 miles of EV only mode but say the ICE would kick on after about 10 seconds of full throttle acceleration and after 95mph, to help support the pack voltage and keep the C rate load down, even if the pack were fully charged. This vehicle would in reality provide many more EV only miles driven, but because of the ICE support under rare conditions, would fail the GM definition of EREV. Would GM need to create yet another special term for it? PHEV60 would designate it quite well and differentiate it from the PHEV40 Volt in a way that really matters and the way the general public would understand. I think the GM created term caused more confusion than anything else. If they had instead called it a PHEV, targeted the Prius, and declared it a better hybrid, with a plug, much of the confusion, and attacks from certain sections of the media, would have been greatly reduced. Not to mention this entire discussion would not even be happening.

If it operated as you outlined it would be a PHEV.

http://www.media.gm.com/content/dam/Media/microsites/product/volt/docs/paper.pdf

“A vehicle that functions as a full-performance battery electric vehicle when energy is available from an onboard RESS and having an auxiliary energy supply that is only engaged when the RESS energy is not available.”

I don't think that the definition can be any clearer. An E-REV should have to run the engine only if the battery is used up. One of the key reasons for E-REV is to avoid the high emissions associated with running a cold engine, and running an engine to provide power runs counter to that.

 

[Doug_G]

Also this discussion is heading for eviction into the Pure BEV Dogma thread. Let's please talk about the Volt and stop the meaningless arguments over terminology.

 

[JRP3]

If it operated as you outlined it would be a PHEV.

http://www.media.gm.com/content/dam/Media/microsites/product/volt/docs/paper.pdf

The point you seem to be missing is that many of us don't feel the GM created marketing paper you keep quoting is a useful or definitive document. Both the vehicle I outlined and the current Volt are in fact PHEV's. They do in fact have a plug, and they are in fact hybrids.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

Simply posting the same paper and same quote multiple times in response to people's points generally isn't considered helpful.

As long as people keep ignoring the actual definition of E-REV, and the principle behind it, I'll keep posting the link and definition. Because if they bother to read the linked paper, they should then stop spouting ignorant tosh about methods of hybridization and stop introducing stupid hypothetical edge-case non-E-REVs.

 

[richkae]

No one, ever....is going to drive more electric miles in a Volt, than they would in a vehicle that is a true EV. That is because it's impossible to burn gasoline in an EV. I'm sure someone here is going to argue otherwise, but no Volt(even brand spanking new) will come with a dry fuel tank. Once there is fuel in the tank, the. Volt will find a way to burn it. That's what it was designed to do!

I disagree. I think it is possible for a Volt owner to drive more electric miles than a true EV, because the Volt owner could drive more total miles than the EV owner. Because it is a hybrid it would give you the confidence to go on an 80 mile round trip without being sure that there is charging available at the half way point. If charging is available at the half way point, then you can do the trip electric. The EV owner with an 80 mile range EV may choose not to go, or to take a backup ICE car.

I have done many trips in my Tesla that I would not have done in a Leaf, because even though they were within Leaf range if charging was available, there was no guarantee of convenient charging where I wanted to stop. Some of the time, when I got there I found something I could have used if I had wanted to ( but I did not bother because I didn't need it in a Tesla ).

That is the advantage of carrying the ICE drivetrain with you - you will burn some gas - but it can enable more total miles.

 

[scaesare]

(I'm in agreement with Doug_G's reminder this should be about the Volt itself, hence this is a post to attempt to clarify facts)

I don't think that the definition can be any clearer. An E-REV should have to run the engine only if the battery is used up.

In the Volt this is not the case. From Andrew Farah, Chief Engineer for the Volt:

First, he confirms the ICE can be one of the forces driving the vehicle:

• The Volt has three distinct motive forces in it: a large electric motor, a small electric motor/generator, and a 1.4 liter engine. Up totwo of those three forces can be combined in select ways through the Volt's secret sauce drive unit—given the road demands and state of charge of the battery—to drive the vehicle.
• ...the gas engine can only ever be combined with one of the other motive forces to drive the wheels

Secondly, he confirms that there will be conditions when the ICE does so:

• The gas engine, under most conditions, will be used to drive the generator and produce electricity, and will not be used to drive the wheels.

Finally, the criteria for the car doing so is efficiency, not solely battery depletion:

• The engine is used to partially drive the wheels when the car calculates that it will be a more efficient use of the engine's power.

You can listen to him yourself on that link above.

Additionally, reading the paper you keep posting reveals that what GM published in that SAE paper in 2008 is not what they built in 2011.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

The point you seem to be missing is that many of us don't feel the GM created marketing paper you keep quoting is a useful or definitive document. Both the vehicle I outlined and the current Volt are in fact PHEV's. They do in fact have a plug, and they are in fact hybrids.

The point you and others seem to be missing is that the not having to run an engine to provide credible performance is an extremely important distinction.

How many people here make reference to the engine driving the wheels, even though it's totally irrelevant to GM's suggested definition and makes no difference to whether it's a hybrid or not?

Countless times I read people here mocking analysts and journalists for trying to suggest that other PHEVs will compete with the Model S when they can't match the same EV performance. Full EV performance matters and I'm sick and tired of the blatant double-standards that are being applied, in trying to insist that the Volt has to be lumped together with other vehicles that can't provide the same driving experience because the manufacturer just stuck a bigger battery and a plug on an HEV.

Let's try this...

The Model S is just a car! Stop calling it a battery electric car and performance sedan! Hey, I'm not putting it down! It's a sedan, and it has excellent, exciting performance, and uses electricity instead of gasoline, but this "BEV" and "performance sedan" nonsense is just marketing fluff! Call it what it is, a car!

Do you get it now, Mr JZQ2?