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Pure BEV Dogma
- Thread starter bonnie
- Start date
Apparently, everyone doesn't know the Volt is a hybrid given the number of posts where people insist that it's an EV with a range extender.
The Volt has a different drivetrain architecture. Does that warrant a new name? GM thinks so ... but that's because GM wins if it can convince a reasonable number of customers to put the Volt into a separate category.
If the Volt is in the EREV category and you decide that an EREV is what you want, the PIP is automatically out of contention. Whereas if everyone thinks of the Volt as a hybrid, they'll lump the Volt and PIP in the same mental category and pick between them based on their merits.
Personally, I think the Volt is a better hybrid overall but there will be a lot of people for whom the PIP is the better choice. That because the Volt runs on electricity for longer but once the engine kicks in, it gets 37 mpg. The PIP switches to the engine much sooner but it gets 50 mpg instead of 37 mpg.
So if I had a long commute and no way to charge at work or took lots of long road trips, the PIP would be the obvious winner. And if the PIP had a 50 mile battery and an electric speed limit of 75 mph, the PIP would the slam-dunk winner all the time.
For me, there's a very simple distinction between an EV and hybrid. If for some reason, the battery can't power the car -
- and the car is an EV, the car stops.
- and the car is a hybrid, the ICE kicks in and the car keeps going until it runs out of both gas and battery power.
If you own a Volt and you can drive it so the engine almost never turns on, hurray for you! But the Volt is still a hybrid.
Yes, it's still a hybrid. But the point I'm arguing is that what matters in terms of naming and marketing are functional definitions.
Consider the definition of PHEV. Now answer the following questions:
(1) How far can a PHEV travel without using gas?
(2) What is the maximum speed at which a PHEV can travel without using the engine?
(3) What is the 0-30 mph time for a PHEV without using an engine?
(4) What is the 30-60 mph time for a PHEV without using an engine?
(5) Can a PHEV heat the cabin without running the engine?
(6) How fast can a PHEV's battery be charged?
(7) How efficient is a PHEV when running in hybrid mode?
(8) How much gasoline does a PHEV use while it is using the charge from the battery?
PHEV contains _zero_ useful information.
Now:
(1) A Silverado is a pick-up. Define pick-up.
(2) A Suburban is an SUV. Define SUV.
Pick-up does not have a strict definition.
SUV does not have a strict definition.
Those names solely represent functional characteristics.
But EREV, oh no, we can't be having that. That name actually contains useful information. They must call it a PHEV because people love wading pointlessly through specs and nobody really gives a stuff whether their hybrid's engine will run every day or not. It's not like anyone cares about pollution, noise, smoothness of ride, gasoline consumption or service frequency.
True, but if you are describing a bat, and fail to mention it can "act like a bird" and fly, you are not describing a bat very well.
Similarly, if you want to know the difference between a flying squirrel and a bat, one glides (though can go pretty far that way), while the other flaps its wings and can actual fly a good distance.
Indeed. And I have no issues with a company naming/branding a product to differentiate it's implementation. That's done all the time.
What I object to is the attempt to miscategorize something that it is not.
Good point. I guess that once somebody chooses a hybrid, they are going to have to deal with burning some gasoline, otherwise they picked the wrong car. It will only get better soon, with more choices.
Good grief. You could not get much clearer than animal classification for an example of why categories and classifications are different than individual members therein:
Further differentiating an animal's characteristics does not change it's classification.
"Flying squirrels are mammals that may glide up to 50 meters, although are not capable of sustained self powered flight." <-- Despite some similar abilities, a squirrel is not a bird. It's "class" remains mammal.
"Volt's are hybrids that can drive up to 40 mile via battery although not capable of longer duration electric-only driving." <-- Despite some similar abilities, a Volt is not an EV. It's "class" remains hybrid.
I totally agree. A volt is a hybrid. My only point is saying it's a hybrid, or even a plugin hybrid, is not enough useful information.
You could also just say it's a car. That is helpful in differentiating if from trucks, bikes, motorcycles and skate boards as a mode of transportation. But it is not helpful in understand much about how it how efficient it will be for your driving habits, etc.
Breezy
Member
I think we're getting there.
So have Battery Electric Vehicle (BEV) and Hybrid.
Within the Hybrid category, we have HEV (Prius), PHEV (Plug-in Prius), and EREV (Volt and i3 REx is welcome to join as well).
That's closer although, as has been pointed out, it further already fits the established definition of a PHEV. It's implementation is different than that of a Prius, but there's nothing magic about going 40 miles rather than something somewhat less, etc.
I'd say Chevy's "EREV" is roughly analogous to Toyota's "Hybrid Synergy Drive". That allows the vehicles to properly fit in to the upper-level categories as already defined by standards bodies like the SAE, and yet allows the manufacturers to differentiate their implementations within those categories. Chevy is welcome to extol the virtues of their EREV implementation of a PHEV platform.
So just as:
Toyota Prius = Hybrid->PHEV->Hybrid Synergy Drive
so too:
Chevy Volt = Hybrid->PHEV->Extended Range Electric Vehicle*
At that point the customer can be educated what that means from Chevy and more properly compare like platforms.
*Although I admit that the attempt call it an Electric Vehicle still feels like verbiage sleight of hand, I'm more tolerant of manufacturers making up marketing terms for their own versions of things than their attempting to redefine existing standards from accepted bodies like the SAE
While we're here, I think HEV/PHEV/EREV are all missing a critical part in the description.
HEV=Hybrid(?,EV)
PHEV=Plugin(Hybrid(?,EV))
EREV=ExtendedRange(?,EV)
Perhaps if what was extending the range was included in the name we'd have the "depth of info" that is apparently "missing" in EV but also missing in all three of the above.
How about HGEV, PHGEV, and ERGEV?
Then when our German friends introduce their diesel flavors we can all argue about whether HDEV is better than HGEV or not.
Lastly, I think part of the objection to "EREV" is that it's trying to dodge the "H" for some reason and that seems shady at best. If you're afraid to say what you actually are, what else are you hiding? EPA number fudging?
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
Let's not pretend that the term "EREV" tells the uninitiated anything useful at all, since they have no idea what it means. PHEV40 tells them most of what they need to know, plugin hybrid with 40 miles of electric only range.
PHEV40 is nice and clear.
The only important thing missing is whether it can go highway speed (75MPH+) in EV only mode. That is the big distinction between a Volt and a PIP, and why Volt Drivers can go months with using any gas at all. PHEV40+ maybe?
This distinction isn't that important because the likeliness of an OEM using expensive high capacity drain batteries in a low range Hybrid is next to none. The 20 EV mile or less range Hybrids will not have the battery capacity to remain "battery only" at highway speeds.
I don't necessarily disagree, and I wouldn't mind something more descriptive either.
But adhering to the category definitions as generally accepted and/or defined by the likes of the SAE, and then allowing manufacturers to do whatever selling/"education"/dazzling they want to do within their showrooms and via their glossy brochures is probably a reasonable tradeoff.
myoda
Member
Good point. There is some debate about what happens above 70 - 75 mph in the Volt drivetrain. I currently drive a Volt, and am on the Tesla fence after another MS test drive here in Pittsburgh recently. The last time I put gas in my car was June 2nd of this year. I normally get 45 to 47 miles per charge when its warm - and hotfoot it back and forth to work. Check Voltstats.net for stats Volt, ELR and Spark and get your geek on. Waiting for Tesla to open a store in SW PA - hopefully Q1 of 2015.
The "debate" is between people who are uninformed or purport to believe that media reports are always 100% accurate vs. people who have spent the time to inform themselves through reading engineering papers and/or studying the empirical data from OBD II monitors. There is no real dispute that the Volt stays battery-only regardless of speed or acceleration just like the i3 or the Ford Energi models in the persistent "EV now" mode. These cars can also be driven at highway speeds. Some people, who do not drive plugin hybrids, maintain that this triple grouping (speed, acceleration or torque demand, and highway capability) is not an important characteristic. According to them, it is the characteristic that must not be named. Battery range, even with significant drivability limitations, is the only thing that matters for plugin hybrids, according to them. All you need to know is PHEV 10, 20, 40 or 60.
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rolosrevenge
Dr. EVS
I'm curious if anyone out there has changed their opinion on the PHEV/EREV terminology holy war that has raged for the past 50 pages. Please pipe up if you have, if not, perhaps we'll have to settle this like gentlemen at the next TMC Connect...
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