Putting a plug on an HPWC (Code Violations and Insurance)

[Chris TX]

I wired my HPC into a NEMA 14-50. It has run just fine for several years and have run at 64 amps with no issue or heat. And yes I know that is not code. The reason I did this was I initially installed a NEMA 14-50 and pulled #6 wire for it (oversized) on a 70 amp breaker, if/when I sell the house I will replace the 70 amp break with a 50 amp version and I will be fully in code. I charged for a year on my UMC before I got the HPC.

I am comfortable doing this because 99+% of the time I charge at 40 amps. There have been a handful of times I wanted/needed full power which is 64 amps in my case. When I have done this I have monitored the temperatures to made sure there are no hot spots. So do I "recommend" it no. But can it be done, yes. Can it be done safely, again yes.

So you are purposefully pushing a sustained 64A through an outlet that's rated for 50A? Also, your 6AWG wire isn't code (or even safe) for 64A sustained with or without conduit unless it's less than 10 feet away from the breaker. Just because you haven't caught your garage on fire yet, doesn't mean it's being done "safely"

6 gauge wire is never "oversized" for 50A, either.

 

[wk057]

I wired my HPC into a NEMA 14-50. It has run just fine for several years and have run at 64 amps with no issue or heat. And yes I know that is not code. The reason I did this was I initially installed a NEMA 14-50 and pulled #6 wire for it (oversized) on a 70 amp breaker, if/when I sell the house I will replace the 70 amp break with a 50 amp version and I will be fully in code. I charged for a year on my UMC before I got the HPC.

I am comfortable doing this because 99+% of the time I charge at 40 amps. There have been a handful of times I wanted/needed full power which is 64 amps in my case. When I have done this I have monitored the temperatures to made sure there are no hot spots. So do I "recommend" it no. But can it be done, yes. Can it be done safely, again yes.

Wow, yeah. I'd keep the fire department on standby. At least the 40A version of the HPWC+plug code violation is half-safe. This is just idiotic.


64A on a NEMA 14-50 is a fire waiting to happen. A 70A breaker on a 14-50 outlet is a code violation by itself. Even if you hard wired the HPWC with a 70A breaker and appropriate wiring (#4 off hand...) you could still only legally pull 56A. #6 THHN 90C wire is rated for 75A, but you'll never find a 90C rated breaker of 14-50 outlet... and to use the 90C number all items on that wire need to be 90C rated. The terminals in the HPWC are 75C rated. Best you'll get is 65A out of a short run of #6 with 75C ratings. Using the 125% rule, that's 52A continuous, max, assuming you hard wired the HPWC (the 14-50 outlet is 50A max, 40A continuous).

There is quite literally no excuse for this kind of safety negligence. The "if/when I sell the house I will [make the install of the outlet to code]" part won't actually matter if (more like when) the house burns to the ground beforehand...

Wow.

Please, no one follow this example. If you value your home, property, and family, please just pretend you never saw this nonsense.

 

[patrick42h]

I wired my HPC into a NEMA 14-50. It has run just fine for several years and have run at 64 amps with no issue or heat. And yes I know that is not code. The reason I did this was I initially installed a NEMA 14-50 and pulled #6 wire for it (oversized) on a 70 amp breaker, if/when I sell the house I will replace the 70 amp break with a 50 amp version and I will be fully in code. I charged for a year on my UMC before I got the HPC.

I am comfortable doing this because 99+% of the time I charge at 40 amps. There have been a handful of times I wanted/needed full power which is 64 amps in my case. When I have done this I have monitored the temperatures to made sure there are no hot spots. So do I "recommend" it no. But can it be done, yes. Can it be done safely, again yes.

I cannot state strongly enough how dangerous that is. Codes exist for a reason and I can think of no good reason to not do the job right.

 

[dhrivnak]

Correct and I am sure none of you ever go over the speed limit. As speeds are posted for the maximum safe speed on the given road. The wire is in conduit and never gets warm. On the RARE occasions I push the limit I double check the temperature. I have a 30' run and show a 6 gauge can safely handle 90 amps or better and I am protecting it with a 70 amp breaker. Where does it say a 6 gauge is unsafe with 64 amps.

- - - Updated - - -

Just because you haven't caught your garage on fire yet, doesn't mean it's being done "safely"

A Model S cable does get warm when used. But my wiring does not even get warm. I am far more worried about the Model S charging cord as the DO get warm.

 

[spaceballs]

Correct and I am sure none of you ever go over the speed limit. As speeds are posted for the maximum safe speed on the given road. ...

With the NEMA 14-50 I feel like your your driving like 90 mph non stop on a 60 mph road everyday, sure 99% of the time your fine...

 

[linkster]

6 gauge wire is never "oversized" for 50A, either.

Huh? I am showing a 75A rating for 6 ga. THHN wire.

It stands to reason (to me) that a 14-50 receptacle is very robust and is underrated @50A which has an approx 60% larger prong (surface contact) on L1 than a similarly rated 6-50 50A device (yes, I know there is more to it than that). dhriv has monitored the temps and deemed them to be safe/acceptable/"comfortable" (to him). Y'all can throw NEC books/regulations at him all day long. Not endorsing/recommending his approach. Jus' sayin'

 

[wk057]

Correct and I am sure none of you ever go over the speed limit. As speeds are posted for the maximum safe speed on the given road. The wire is in conduit and never gets warm. On the RARE occasions I push the limit I double check the temperature. I have a 30' run and show a 6 gauge can safely handle 90 amps or better and I am protecting it with a 70 amp breaker. Where does it say a 6 gauge is unsafe with 64 amps.

- - - Updated - - -

A Model S cable does get warm when used. But my wiring does not even get warm. I am far more worried about the Model S charging cord as the DO get warm.

The Model S charging cord is designed to get warm and is safe to get warm up to 105C. I highly doubt you're seeing anything near that.

Huh? I am showing a 75A rating for 6 ga. THHN wire.

It stands to reason (to me) that a 14-50 receptacle is very robust and is underrated @50A which has an approx 70% larger prong (surface contact) on L1 than a similarly rated 6-50 50A device (yes, I know there is more to it than that). Since dhriv has monitored the temps and deemed them to be safe/acceptable (to him) y'all can throw NEC books/regulations at him all day long. Not endorsing/recommending his approach. Jus' sayin'

The 75A rating is at 90C.

Nothing in residential wiring is rated for 90C. At most 75C, which is 65A max for #6 THHN. Keep in mind everything on the line needs the 90C rating to use the 90C rated amperage... which doesn't happen in residential installs. The 14-50 receptacle, regardless of how "robust" you may feel it is, is rated for 50A max non-continuous load, 40A continuous. Even if you ran #4/0 cable to it, you still should only pull 50A max from that outlet safely.

I don't care how much you think you're monitoring temperatures. The fact that you even think you need to monitor the temperatures just shows you know this is illegal and unsafe. Unless your wiring is completely exposed (which would be a code violation with THHN anyway) you're not monitoring conductor temps in the wall where insulation melting is likely occurring and will eventually fail under these loads.

At 30' of #6 at 64A, even if the receptacle were rated for this and ignoring any voltage drop there, you'd be getting a voltage drop across that 30' run of more than I get off of a 300' run on my service entrance conductors. Something like ~400+W of heat being dissipated. You're basically turning those wires into a resistive electric heater in your wall, not to mention the contacts of the 14-50 male and female sides.

This is not the same as violating the speed limit on a road.

Putting a 70A breaker on a NEMA 14-50 is more like putting a 70 MPH speed limit sign in a residential area... which is just crazy.

 

[FlasherZ]

Huh? I am showing a 75A rating for 6 ga. THHN wire.

It stands to reason (to me) that a 14-50 receptacle is very robust and is underrated @50A which has an approx 60% larger prong (surface contact) on L1 than a similarly rated 6-50 50A device (yes, I know there is more to it than that). dhriv has monitored the temps and deemed them to be safe/acceptable/"comfortable" (to him). Y'all can throw NEC books/regulations at him all day long. Not endorsing/recommending his approach. Jus' sayin'

I've seen 14-50 receptacles melt at 50 amp continuous load.

As for the ratings, this starts to get complicated. The conductors themselves are rated at 75 amp at 90 degC temperature, but residential terminations are only rated at 75 deg C (65 amp). You can use the 90 degree column when doing derating calculations (more than 3 conductors in a conduit, high ambient temp, etc.), then you use the smaller of the termination rating or derated conductor rating. Breaker selection comes next - you're permitted to go one size up to protect the circuit, but that does not permit you to offer a load greater than the conductor / termination rating of the conductors or equipment (outlets). In this case, the use of a 50A receptacle requires a 50A breaker and a minimum of #8 in conduit or #6 NM-B, with a maximum offered charging load of 40A per law.

If you feel that you're being safe and you're willing to assume the risk, then that is your decision and it comes with liability and insurance concerns. I won't accept you telling others to do it, and I'll point out that it is illegal in most jurisdictions to do it (yes, illegal, as the code is codified in law - and some jurisdictions make it a misdemeanor to knowingly violate it).

I will simply reply and say that I have seen 50A intermittent loads (not even continuous loads) melt 50A receptacles more than once, and the Code will bake in conditions down the road a bit. Something that works just fine at the moment of install isn't necessarily going to be safe after many expansion/contraction cycles, oxidation of the conductor surface, earth tremors, etc. I believe you're taking too much of a risk and would never recommend anyone do what you've done.

If you want to assume the risk of your home burning down, then that is your option. I'd rather spend the additional dollars to put in the HPWC properly, so that I wasn't risking the hassle of an uninsured loss.

 

[Peter_M]

Another point, dhrivnak: If your house burns down, a smart insurance company lawyer could use this thread to show that you knew that your installation was illegal and dangerous, and deny a claim.

 

[dhrivnak]

Wow an impressive piling on.

The initial question was can a plug be added to a HPWC and safely plugged into a NEMA 14-50. The short answer is yes.

Now I am curious how many of you piling on have actually built a house? I have been the general contractor for 3 homes over the past 30 years. Two were personal homes and one for Habitat for Humanity. All have stood for at least 15 years and the first for 30 years now without issue. We have not even filed a single insurance claim. On the last one I was the one to wire it and with the exception of a minor GFI issue on our pond/waterfall, now fixed, I we have never even tripped a breaker.

Additionally through Habitat I have helped build another 35 homes in the area and another 15 internationally. So far none have experienced a problem. On one of those international trips is where I found out the true seating capacity of small Toyota pick-up is 21 people. Really driving home the difference between designed load and just how far some will push things.

I also built an all-electric 1997 Jeep conversion and a 1998 Miata that have both been on the road over 4 years now. I even converted by 2004 Avalanche into a plug in hybrid. So I know and have worked around wiring.

That said many codes are in place for safety and a number are old carry-overs that add little to nothing for safety. Obviously when building for others one should follow code. But violating a code does not always equal being unsafe. So if there is any doubt follow code.

But a NEMA 14-50 is designed to be unplugged under load, not ideal but that is part of the design. If you get a good quality NEMA 14-50 plug and socket, installed properly, can it carry more than 50 amps without meltdown or issue? Yes it is possible. My voltage drops normally from 244 to 242 at a full 64 amps and the wire and receptacle have never been more than 5 degrees above ambient. FAR lower than the 30 degree rise I saw on a Model S cord.

Now again 99+% of my charging is at 40 amps well within all guidelines. When I do push things I monitor to make sure I have not missed something.

- - - Updated - - -

Another point, dhrivnak: If your house burns down, a smart insurance company lawyer could use this thread to show that you knew that your installation was illegal and dangerous, and deny a claim.

Yes in hindsight I wish I could delete all related posts, such is the downside of the internet.

 

[FlasherZ]

Now I am curious how many of you piling on have actually built a house? I have been the general contractor for 3 homes over the past 30 years. Two were personal homes and one for Habitat for Humanity. All have stood for at least 15 years and the first for 30 years now without issue. We have not even filed a single insurance claim. On the last one I was the one to wire it and with the exception of a minor GFI issue on our pond/waterfall, now fixed, I we have never even tripped a breaker.

Residential and commercial building, yes. None of the buildings I've been involved with have fallen or suffered catastrophic events, either. However, I've seen my share of serious electrical problems in a very wide range of installations. I can tell you that you are incorrect about "good quality" NEMA 14-50 receptacles, they're not designed to handle 60+ amps. If you can find a representative at Hubbell, Leviton, etc., who will document that they design for your 64 amps, I'll happily eat my words.

The most important part is that you're satisfied with what you have done and accepted the risk. But should you decide to recommend to others that they do the same as you, please make sure to tell them you have violated the law by doing what you did and that you've exceeded the legal continuous load current by 60% in your setup. Then you won't be subject to "piling on".

 

[wk057]

Now I am curious how many of you piling on have actually built a house? I have been the general contractor for 3 homes over the past 30 years. Two were personal homes and one for Habitat for Humanity. All have stood for at least 15 years and the first for 30 years now without issue. We have not even filed a single insurance claim. On the last one I was the one to wire it and with the exception of a minor GFI issue on our pond/waterfall, now fixed, I we have never even tripped a breaker. Additionally through Habitat I have helped build another 35 homes in the area and another 15 internationally. So far none have experienced a problem. On one of those international trips is where I found out the true seating capacity of small Toyota pick-up is 21 people. Really driving home the difference between designed load and just how far some will push things.

I had worked as an electrical contractor for years up until recently. I've also done quite a bit of EE work. I'm presently involved in my own electrical projects. 100% to code.

I also built an all-electric 1997 Jeep conversion and a 1998 Miata that have both been on the road over 4 years now. I even converted by 2004 Avalanche into a plug in hybrid. So I know and have worked around wiring.

Just because you've made something and it works doesn't mean it was done correctly. I rigged up my battery storage to some inverters and a HPWC and some other equipment along with a suicide/backfeed double male cord to test some things out for my solar project. Certainly was not to code, was not safe, and I would never defend it, ever. I would never recommend anyone duplicate it, and I would never do this in a residence where I would be risking lives. (My test setup was in a detached mostly concrete structure 50yds from the main residence).

That said many codes are in place for safety and a number are old carry-overs that add little to nothing for safety. Obviously when building for others one should follow code. But violating a code does not always equal being unsafe. So if there is any doubt follow code.

I promise, the resistance of #6 copper wire has not changed over the years, and thus the lack of safety in doing what you're doing here has not gone down. Violating the code in this instance, no matter how you spin it, is being unsafe.

But a NEMA 14-50 is designed to be unplugged under load, not ideal but that is part of the design. If you get a good quality NEMA 14-50 plug and socket, installed properly, can it carry more than 50 amps without meltdown or issue? Yes it is possible.

I think you need to check the specs on what exactly a NEMA 14-50 is before you start preaching about how it works and what it can handle.

My voltage drops normally from 244 to 242 at a full 64 amps and the wire and receptacle have never been more than 5 degrees above ambient. FAR lower than the 30 degree rise I saw on a Model S cord.

If you're pulling 64A at 240V through #6 wire, then this is just a lie. FLIR pics that show an amp meter or it didn't happen. Sorry, not possible. If your conductor were only 5ft with 25C ambient a #6 THHN conductor would settle around at least 68C in 25C free air at 64A, higher inside conduit, and higher for longer runs. Math.

Now again 99+% of my charging is at 40 amps well within all guidelines. When I do push things I monitor to make sure I have not missed something.

This is not an acceptable excuse for violating code. It also doesn't make a difference anyway since the 70A breaker is a code violation and safety problem 100% of the time.

This is same as the "I promise to turn off the main breaker before illegally backfeeding my panel" excuse for using a suicide cord with a generator.

Yes in hindsight I wish I could delete all related posts, such is the downside of the internet.

Honestly, I hope someone in authority in your jurisdiction runs across this and acts appropriately.

 

[dhrivnak]

If you're pulling 64A at 240V through #6 wire, then this is just a lie. FLIR pics that show an amp meter or it didn't happen. Sorry, not possible. If your conductor were only 5ft with 25C ambient a #6 THHN conductor would settle around at least 68C in 25C free air at 64A, higher inside conduit, and higher for longer runs. Math.

WOW someone is having a bad day. I'm lying that I am pulling 64 amps at 240V? I guess the electronics in the Tesla are bad as I clearly see 242V at 64 amps in the VDS shot below. This is less of a voltage drop I see with 30 amp public charging and NEMA 14-50's at campgrounds.

You had me worried so I rechecked the plug and wire run with my IR meter and while there is a temperature rise after 20 minutes; 4 degrees F is well within tolerances and well below a Model S cable.

I see you are the next state over from me so if you need a charge just off of I26 you might want to find an option B unless you want to verify the number for yourself. I am confident the house will still be here.

 

[wk057]

WOW someone is having a bad day. I'm lying that I am pulling 64 amps at 240V? I guess the electronics in the Tesla are bad as I clearly see 242V at 64 amps in the VDS shot below. This is less of a voltage drop I see with 30 amp public charging and NEMA 14-50's at campgrounds.
View attachment 72001

You had me worried so I rechecked the plug and wire run with my IR meter and while there is a temperature rise after 20 minutes; 4 degrees F is well within tolerances and well below a Model S cable.

I see you are the next state over from me so if you need a charge just off of I26 you might want to find an option B unless you want to check for yourself.

*sigh*

First, this doesn't really prove anything. While, this image just shows you charging at 64A@242V... doesn't mean this is with your illegal outlet setup, doesn't show the starting voltage, etc. The voltage drop is going to be at least several percent. I can't speak to the Roadster's voltage reading accuracy, but I know what the Model S shows on the dash is +/- 1V of what I read directly at the rear of the charge port inside the trunk. (Edit: To clarify, if you look at my earlier post, I wasn't saying that you charging at 64A was the lie, it was the ridiculous lack of temperature rise you report at that rate)

I'd also guess your IR meter isn't really all that accurate (or is being used improperly) if you're only seeing a 4F rise at any point on the wiring or outlet using the setup you described. Even pulling 40A @ 240V on #6 wire, the legal setup, will cause a nominal temperature rise. If you're basing your entire safety argument on a cheap IR meter's readout... I'd highly suggest opening your eyes a bit wider, ie through a FLIR or similar IR cam.

4F rise is just ridiculous and wrong unless you have an A/C unit cooling the plug and wiring or something equally strange.


So that people have something to compare, and to prove that this 4F rise at 64A is ridiculous, here are some normal temperature rise pics from Mr. FLIR that I've taken at various times during my solar project install:

FLIR image of #6 wire under load at 32A/240V (half of what you're pulling and well below the rated amount) showing a ~25F temperature rise above ambient after 45 minutes.

Another pic of #6 wire, this time NM cable (6/2 Romex) under 30A/240V load for ~10 minutes. More than 5F rise above ambient already at this load, less than half of yours.

FLIR image of my right side 200A electrical panel showing two sets of #2 wire running to my two HPWCs, both running at 80A (only 16A more than you're pulling on #6 wire which is roughly 1/3rd the amount of copper), showing a 50F (~27C) temperature rise on the conductors after 90 minutes. (Breaker runs a bit hotter than the conductors, but this is normal)

Just to drive home that the whole 4F rise on #6 @ 64A is impossible, here is #3/0 wire under 240V/85A load (HPWC at 80A + a few 120V loads). The #3/0 wire is literally ~7x more copper, and it still has a temperature rise of about 5-6F after ~40 minutes.

A picture is worth 1000 words... and a FLIR pic is worth 64,000 data points. (Edit: I'll point out that the temperatures readings from FLIR of the conductors above are within 1% of what the math says they should be for the given load and wire size... the same math that says at least a 45C/88F rise in the #6@64A)

If you're pulling 64A through #6 wire AND a NEMA 14-50 plug and outlet AND 30' of cable, then you said you only saw even the 25F rise like I'm showing in the first FLIR pic at 32A... I'd still have to say you were lying. Perhaps "lying" is a bit harsh. Perhaps "misinformed" may fit better? You're definitely not reporting a real temperature read, that's for damn sure.

I'll just suggest you rent/borrow/buy a decent FLIR cam, look directly at the wiring/outlet/breaker/etc while under your 64A load. If you rent one, do an actual test with enough pics (or better a video) that can at least somewhat prove it's not fake, and I'm wrong and you actually only get a 4F increase in temp anywhere on your wiring/outlet/etc... then you'll need to call a chemist to figure out what your wiring is made out of because it certainly isn't #6 copper wire.

I'm certainly not going to drive 120-ish miles just to end up telling you what I've already told you here... your setup is illegal and your setup is a fire and safety hazard. The 2008 NEC is law in Tennessee. Period. Sorry if I'm a bit harsh on stuff like this, but, I wouldn't want anyone doing this. For example, if I found out my neighbor was doing what you're doing and putting my home and property at risk... call me crazy, but I'd probably call the police.

Since you're obviously not going to change your setup to be legal no matter what anyone says this discussion between you and I is over and I'm done wasting my time with it.

- - - Updated - - -

*Note quickly did math, so could be complete wrong with errors.

#6 wire size over 30 feet is 0.012 ohms.

244v starting voltage x 0.012 ohms = voltage drop of 2.928v

244v starting voltage - 2.928v voltage drop = 241.072, guessing the roadster is rounding up i.e. displaying 242v.

2.928v drop x 64 amps = 187.392 watts over 30 feet run.

You're forgetting losses in the plug/outlet, plus the cable on the HPC, plus the charge connector.

Admittedly, I did my math with a 240V starting voltage which gave me a lower final voltage, but the temperature calcs still remain unchanged +4V since the amperage is the same.

In any case, only a 4F rise on the copper conductor is just impossible, which is the part I said was a lie, not the voltage drop.

Edit: For s**ts and giggles and ran the numbers as if the #6 conductor were made of silver instead of copper (less resistance)... and I still come up with more than 4F rise after 20 minutes. lol.

 

[spaceballs]

... You're forgetting losses in the plug/outlet, plus the cable on the HPC, plus the charge connector.

Admittedly, I did my math with a 240V starting voltage which gave me a lower final voltage, but the temperature calcs still remain unchanged +4V since the amperage is the same.

In any case, only a 4F rise on the conductor is just impossible, which is the part I said was a lie, not the voltage drop.

If the roadster is only showing ~3v drop under 64 Amp load, then I'm guessing he has better wiring than #6 installed in that 30 foot run. Also with only ~3v drop at ~244v that's only ~187 watts of heat generated in the wiring/plugs.

 

[wk057]

If the roadster is only showing ~3v drop under 64 Amp load, then maybe he has better wiring than #6 installed in that 30 foot run? i.e. that's only ~187 watts of heat generated in the wiring/plugs.

While that would help explain things a little, the voltage drop isn't going to be huge even with #6. Plus he said he used #6....

*snip* I initially installed a NEMA 14-50 and pulled #6 wire for it *snip*

The Roadster HPC has 25' of cable as well. I *think* it uses #6 90C wiring, but not 100% sure on that.

So that's 55' total, plus the NEMA 14-50 plug/outlet...

At 64A that's about a 4V drop. The voltage drop isn't the problem here though. The issue is that at this amperage the conductor temperature will rise very quickly and past the termination ratings of everything it is hooked to. I came up with a conductor temperature of ~70C in 25C free air, or about a 45C rise, being very conservative. This doesn't take into account any additional insulation (conduit, cable for the 14-50 male end, wall insulation, whatever).

Then there's the 70A breaker on a 50A rated outlet... the 64A out of a 50A rated outlet... the 64A continuous load out of #6 wire out of a 50A outlet where wire and breaker capable of 80A is required for a 64A continuous load... plus adding the 14-50 plug to the HPC in the first place (debatable if this is a violation/illegal... almost certainly so if it is set to 64A).... etc etc etc. It's not just one infraction like running a HPWC at 40A through a NEMA 14-50, which is code debatable but electrically safe if secured properly... this is multiple code/safety violations, all of which can and will likely result in a fire hazard.

 

[Canuck]

Another point, dhrivnak: If your house burns down, a smart insurance company lawyer could use this thread to show that you knew that your installation was illegal and dangerous, and deny a claim.

I don't know about you but I buy insurance in case I do something dangerous, stupid, negligent, in breach of code, etc. Here's an example for you: I drive over the speed limit (illegal) and dangerously around a winding road, and end up totalling my car. Then I post the dash cam video on Youtube for the world to see what a reckless jerk I am. So this smart insurance company lawyer sees the video and points to what exclusion in an insurance policy? Or what case-law are you referring to? Or is it a statute? Please elaborate.

 

[wk057]

I don't know about you but I buy insurance in case I do something dangerous, stupid, negligent, in breach of code, etc. Here's an example for you: I drive over the speed limit (illegal) and dangerously around a winding road, and end up totalling my car. Then I post the dash cam video on Youtube for the world to see what a reckless jerk I am. So this smart insurance company lawyer sees the video and points to what exclusion in an insurance policy? Or what case-law are you referring to? Or is it a statute? Please elaborate.

<sarcasm>
Wait wait wait... so if I want the insurance company to buy me a new house, all I have to do is burn my house down using an improperly (illegally) wired EVSE? That's kind of awesome. I'll keep that in mind.
</sarcasm>

That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Insurance companies go after people who's homes burn down by trying to pin it on the owners all the time, even when it isn't even remotely the owner's fault, trying to not have to cover the claim under one exclusion or another. You mean to tell me if someone continuously operates something that creates a fire hazard, violates fire safety code, local ordnance, and law, then their house eventually burns to the ground because of it, and the person publicly admits to the violation... the insurance company isn't going to have a field day in an effort to not cover the claim?

Things must be different in Canada.

Edit: 30 seconds of glancing through my own homeowner's insurance policy and I see explicit exclusion for damage caused by "faulty workmanship." I think would be an easy argument to use in the case of a fire caused by a 70A breaker being installed where a 50A breaker should have been installed. I'm sure there is some more things in here that would screw me over if I were operating with illegally installed wiring. Fortunately, my work is to code.

 

[Canuck]

<sarcasm>
Wait wait wait... so if I want the insurance company to buy me a new house, all I have to do is burn my house down using an improperly (illegally) wired EVSE? That's kind of awesome. I'll keep that in mind.
</sarcasm>

That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Insurance companies go after people who's homes burn down by trying to pin it on the owners all the time, even when it isn't even remotely the owner's fault, trying to not have to cover the claim under one exclusion or another...

Things must be different in Canada.

Edit: 30 seconds of glancing through my own homeowner's insurance policy and I see explicit exclusion for damage caused by "faulty workmanship." I think would be an easy argument to use in the case of a fire caused by a 70A breaker being installed where a 50A breaker should have been installed. I'm sure there is some more things in here that would screw me over if I were operating with illegally installed wiring. Fortunately, my work is to code.

So an accident from an improperly wired EVSE is arson? Now I've heard it all!

With regard to your "faulty workmanship" exclusion, you need to understand that the insurance policy is an "act or occurrence" policy. That is, there must be an act or occurrence in order to trigger coverage. Faulty workmanship, in itself, is not an act or occurrence and thus is excluded from coverage. However, once the faulty workmanship triggers an act or occurrence then there is coverage. So if you build a faulty fence and it collapses, taking out the side of your neighbour's house, you have coverage. The "collapse" is the act or occurrence. But if you build a faulty fence and ask for coverage to fix it, there is no coverage because there is no act or occurrence. Faulty install of an EVSE is not covered, whereas fire resulting from faulty install is covered because of the fire. Do you now understand the exclusion that you referenced?

The law is no different in the States than in Canada. We are both common-law jurisdictions and American case-law is cited in Canadian decisions and vice versa. There are areas where certain principles and legislation vary but by and large the main principles and legislation are the same.

You mean to tell me if someone continuously operates something that creates a fire hazard, violates fire safety code, local ordnance, and law, then their house eventually burns to the ground because of it, and the person publicly admits to the violation... the insurance company isn't going to have a field day in an effort to not cover the claim?

Yes, these types of claims are paid all the time, unless there is an exclusion for code breaches, which I warned people to ensure is not contained in their policies of insurance. What do you think causes fires, other than by human error or arson? If everything complied with safety codes, you wouldn't see any fires caused by overloaded circuits, faulty wiring, fuses that are removed with wires replacing them, and the list goes on and on. Please don't try to tell me that insurance companies deny these types of claims because it is just not true.

Once again, I am not telling people not to do work to code. Of course, you should. I just don't want people to think that what they are being told about insurance, and certain exclusions, to be taken as correct, especially from people without knowledge in this area. I also want to make sure people buy policies of insurance that do not contain clauses that may erase your coverage:

http://www.armr.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/anticoncurrent.pdf

 

[scottm]

The best thing about this thread is the free legal input on insurance policies. And here I thought it had to do with charging.

FWIW, my HPWC was hard wired into a dedicated 100A branch circuit from a dedicated 100A sub panel at the end of a dedicated run of sufficient gauge armoured cable from the main panel.
I had service from the pole to the house upgraded to 200A (it was only 100A can you believe it?) which involved a new service line (directionally drilled) and a new meter swap to handle 200A and a new main panel upgraded to 200A. All breakers and circuits had to be moved over. The old 100A main panel was moved to garage to become a subpanel.

Here are the breakers in play between the utility and the HPWC: 1) main service panel breaker 200A, 2) branch circuit to subpanel 100A breaker in main panel, 3) subpanel main breaker 100A, 4) HPWC branch run 100A breaker in subpanel. Crazy hey? All required by code.

I charge at 80A all the time at 240V, and get about 93kmh charge rate. The HPWC is such a soft starting charger there's no flicker or dimming of any bulb in the house when it cuts on/off. It's always fun to see the whole-house meter spin up beyond 21kW/h when the car is charging.

Best decision ever made about home charging. Yes, it added to the "price of the car". I view it as installing my own "gas station" at home. Which is what it is, really.