Question: Tesla Charging Costs in Ontario

[RAM_Eh]

Tesla has announced the new policy for limited supercharger usage for cars bought in 2017.

In Ontario I thought only the utilities could charge for hydro. I know there is a new program for level 2 and 3 station being developed and the operators have permission to charge up to $10.00 per visit.

How will this affect Tesla and the pay for use policy?

 

[doubeld]

Not sure about your average power prices out there, but you could probably fill a 85kWh tank for $10 at wholesale prices.

 

[mrElbe]

At current Ontario Hydro One all inclusive residential retail, 85kWh will cost you CAD$ 18.00

 

[doubeld]

Well, looks like you will have to make two "visits" to fill up your battery

 

[SmartElectric]

At current Ontario Hydro One all inclusive residential retail, 85kWh will cost you CAD$ 18.00

That equates to $0.21/kWh which may not be anything like the actual electricity rates charged at sites that use a lot of electricity as per:
IESO Electricity Pricing in Ontario

Any business that uses more than 250,000 kilowatt hours (kWh) of electricity per year − equivalent to a minimum $2,000 electricity bill per month − pays the wholesale market price. The wholesale price comprises only one part of the total commodity cost for electricity. The Global Adjustment covers the cost of building new electricity infrastructure in the province, as well as providing conservation and demand response programs.

250000/70 ~= 3500 fill ups, about 10 per day total across all sites in Ontario...

If Tesla sites start using so much electricity they fall into the category of large industrial power users, then it get's even more interesting, as peak usage can be the primary factor of the cost.

As they say, it varies...

 

[wayner]

At current Ontario Hydro One all inclusive residential retail, 85kWh will cost you CAD$ 18.00

What time of day are you assuming as there is a $.093/kWh difference between peak and off-peak, at least in Toronto.

 

[mrElbe]

What time of day are you assuming as there is a $.093/kWh difference between peak and off-peak, at least in Toronto.

I based this rate on my last bill of 80% off peak, 12% mid peak, and 8% on peak.

 

[wayner]

I don't know about you but 100% of my charging is off-peak. Are you just dividing your total bill by the number of kWh used? That isn't necessarily the best way to do it as some costs are fixed per month so they shouldn't be counted in your EV refill calculation. My calculation of the all-in rate for power in Toronto, including HST, for off-peak is $0.146/kWh. You showed $18/85kWh which is $0.212/kWh which is about 50% higher.

 

[mrElbe]

With Hydro One, both the Delivery and Regulatory charges are also calculated on kWh usage. So they should be added to your charging cost to give a true picture. And don't forget the HST on top. Also pre-heating or pre-cooling happens during peak hours in my case.
As an example here is my last month usage:

Of that my Tesla usage was 369.5 kWh. That is an exact number because I installed an extra meter in the charging circuit.

 

[wayner]

But I think some of those delivery and regulatory charges are calendar based rather than usage based. Here is my calculation using the rates from Toronto Hydro's web page (note that there are also a whole bunch or rate rider charges but they are calendar based):
Off Peak rate 8.7
Transmission 1.7
Distribution 1.88
Wholesale Market 0.49
OESP 0.11
HST 1.6744
Total 14.5544

 

[Phillip L]

I have twice gotten an "audit" from Hydro One pointing out that based on my usage I am in the highest one percent of electricity use compared to my neighbours. They enclose lots of tips to see if I can decrease my electricity usage. Good that they are trying to make people more aware. Don't know how to let them know that I use an electric car. Anyone else get these "audits"?

 

[Lon12]

I get them from Enmax here in Alberta. I get the same "tips". Like I could save up to $35 per year if I switch to CFL or LED's! Already did that, but I have to laugh because I've saved over $2,500 not buying gasoline this year.
Not so sure about the safety of the LED's right now. Had one burn up on me the other night:

 

[Phillip L]

I get them from Enmax here in Alberta. I get the same "tips". Like I could save up to $35 per year if I switch to CFL or LED's! Already did that, but I have to laugh because I've saved over $2,500 not buying gasoline this year.
Not so sure about the safety of the LED's right now. Had one burn up on me the other night:

I got the same tips as you, that I had already done. Yes, the irony is that anyone who drives an electric car probably is more energy conscious than the average ice driver.

 

[RAM_Eh]

So to get back on topic:

How will this affect Tesla and the pay for use policy? Will they need to apply for billing procedures?

 

[mknox]

Electricity pricing in Ontario is fairly complicated and poorly understood. I have looked at my local utility's rate application, the OEB approved TOU rates etc. and put together a spreadsheet so that I can understand my all-in, loss adjusted and HST inclusive price. For me, it currently works out to $0.1383 / kWh (Off Peak), $0.1909 / kWh (Mid Peak) and $0.2470 (On Peak). This would be fairly representative for urban customers, but rural customers served by Hydro One will be higher due to higher distribution charges. "Seasonal" properties like cottages pay even more.

It is highly unlikely that Tesla will be able to charge by the kWh at Superchargers in Ontario. To do so, they would have to be registered with the Ontario Energy Board as a licensed electricity retailer and the metering technology would have to be Measurement Canada approved, tested, sealed and periodically reverified by a licensed lab. I can't see how what they currently employ in the car or at the Supercharger station (if anything) would come even close to qualifying under Federal rules and regulations.

 

[Phillip L]

Electricity pricing in Ontario is fairly complicated and poorly understood. I have looked at my local utility's rate application, the OEB approved TOU rates etc. and put together a spreadsheet so that I can understand my all-in, loss adjusted and HST inclusive price. For me, it currently works out to $0.1383 / kWh (Off Peak), $0.1909 / kWh (Mid Peak) and $0.2470 (On Peak). This would be fairly representative for urban customers, but rural customers served by Hydro One will be higher due to higher distribution charges. "Seasonal" properties like cottages pay even more.

It is highly unlikely that Tesla will be able to charge by the kWh at Superchargers in Ontario. To do so, they would have to be registered with the Ontario Energy Board as a licensed electricity retailer and the metering technology would have to be Measurement Canada approved, tested, sealed and periodically reverified by a licensed lab. I can't see how what they currently employ in the car or at the Supercharger station (if anything) would come even close to qualifying under Federal rules and regulations.

Would they no be able to charge by the minute then? Couldn't they estimate how much it would cost and adjust the price periodically as their cost varies?

 

[mrElbe]

Charging by time would have the advantage of encouraging users to disconnect their vehicles promptly when charging is complete.

 

[int32_t]

I get them from Enmax here in Alberta. I get the same "tips". Like I could save up to $35 per year if I switch to CFL or LED's! Already did that, but I have to laugh because I've saved over $2,500 not buying gasoline this year.
Not so sure about the safety of the LED's right now. Had one burn up on me the other night:

Nasty! I don't mean to change the topic, but I would really like to see the inside of that thing. There's a "driver" circuit that creates a constant current at a low voltage for the LED, in addition to the LED itself -- it would be fascinating to see which part(s) bit the dust. Ikea bulbs?

I've heard that the ballasts in CFLs are designed to fail in a fire-safe manner and heard them pop and snap as they fail before, but I have yet to see or hear an LED bulb go. The components in an LED bulb should last if they are cooled adequately.

I too have been wondering about reselling electricity, and no doubt any hostile regulations will have to change. It's only a matter of time before selling electricity at chargers will be commonplace, though not on every streetcorner since Elon is right about charging your car just like your phone.

 

[mknox]

Would they no be able to charge by the minute then? Couldn't they estimate how much it would cost and adjust the price periodically as their cost varies?

Charging by time would have the advantage of encouraging users to disconnect their vehicles promptly when charging is complete.

Yes, they could easily charge by the minute. In fact, this is how some ChargePoint stations in Ontario already do it. I doubt it would be a very good representation of true kWh costs because of the way charging rates vary due to things like temperature, current state of charge and even older A-pack batteries like mine that is limited to a 90 kW peak charging rate.

 

[SlyWombat]

Yes, they could easily charge by the minute. In fact, this is how some ChargePoint stations in Ontario already do it. I doubt it would be a very good representation of true kWh costs because of the way charging rates vary due to things like temperature, current state of charge and even older A-pack batteries like mine that is limited to a 90 kW peak charging rate.

I was going to say similar, Tesla is not selling "electricity", but instead a service that happens to use electricity. ChargePoint already will charge you at some stations if you stay longer than 2 hours for example.