Range Loss Over Time, What Can Be Expected, Efficiency, How to Maintain Battery Health

[AAKEE]

Interesting… what are your thoughts on this?

Do Electric Car (EV) Batteries Degrade Over Time? - Midtronics

Well, not the best description. Very shorted and might lead to wrong conclusions.


The Degradation do not begin at 1500-2000 cycles. It begins quite short after delivery.

A Tesla Panasonic NCA might hold up 500 to 700 or maybe 1000 or so cycles if charged to 100% and discharged to 0% each time.
But it will do much more cycles if we use smaller cycles. And if we use small cycles at low SOC, they probably could last very very long.

The article do not mention calendar aging.
Calendar aging is larger than cyclic for most people to a factor of 5-10.

In short, the miles driven is just a small part of the degradation.

Sadly, I don't have a charger at home. So I can only charge at work or use superchargers. But when using Supercharger. I only charge 10-20% not a full charge. I'm trying to keep the battery mostly at 50-55% and sometimes charge it when it's at 20%.

When do you think i should do a full 100% charge? I haven't done that yet. The car is like 3 weeks old almost. I'm thinking soon I may. Maybe start tomorrow? Since I'll be away from work and charger? Also what is the best way to track the degradation any free tools?

Thanks soo much for all your input! @AAKEE

There isnt really a ”need” for a full charge, the battery itself do not need that.
But you shouldnt be afraid of full charges.

In my 17 months of Tesla owning and 40K km i have about one full charge per month I think or slightly more.
Full charges every now and then do not cause very much wear. My charging schedule cause so little degradation that despite some 100% charges I will have much less degradation than the average car anyway. I probably have about five of the full charges that was ”just for fun” and not really needed.
—> I do not think you should be arfraid of full charges. Doing one full charge a week and driving the car down to zero, it will take you ten years to kill the battery from this. (Calendar aging might kill it before though).

I did a 0% to 100% charge today (0.40% SOC, was the real BMS number.) The charging hadnt really stopped but I didnt have the time to stay to see the full charge.

After 41.000km and 1.5 years it still holds 79kWh. If I use 82 kWh as the origin number, I have about 3.5% degradation now.
If I look at the range, I have lost 1.8%.
The 3.5% loss is not a random number, its close to my own calculation. Degradation is predictable!

 

[conv90]

An update on my march 2021 Model 3 Perf with E3LD 82.1 FPWN.
probably in my last update of 7/10 days ago it was near 77,8-78 kWh with BMS that recalculted capacity from a low value of 73.9.
Here the today score: 78,7 kWh and Range at about 497-498 km. 227-228 CAC
View attachment 806300

An Update:
reached 79,00 kW and 501 km Range

It's good to see again 250 km at 50%, 125 at 25% and or 285 at 57%...

 

[AAKEE]

An Update:
reached 79,00 kW and 501 km Range
View attachment 807484
View attachment 807486
It's good to see again 250 km at 50%, 125 at 25% and or 285 at 57%...

How do you charge these days?

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

An Update:
reached 79,00 kW and 501 km Range
View attachment 807484
View attachment 807486
It's good to see again 250 km at 50%, 125 at 25% and or 285 at 57%...

Maybe Tesla replaced your battery when you weren’t looking. I wonder what a 100% charge yields…

 

[conv90]

How do you charge these days?

What I wrote friday:
"I always charged from around 15%-20-25% to 55%-60%. so the car slips 2 to 3 hours at 55%-50% 45%.... until i recharge.
------>>What changed in the last 6 weeks is that i have no more a safe way to charge in AC at home during night.
So, I charge from a free AC Tesla destination charger at 11kW placed in a Supercharger place. I have not so much time so usually Im able to charge only few kWh so I move the car 30 meters aside to the V3 Supercharger , I allow the battery to warm to 38-40°C and I charge to 62-63% (actually to 300-310 km range, but now I have to charge only to 60%-61% to achieve 300-305km). Usually I need no more than 10-12 mins.
I drive where i need to go and i return to home at 59% or 58%.
SO the difference is the AC vs. DC . Probably a not smart move in the long term , but actually (probably ) this is one of the reason the NFP increased so much along with some sorta of software change. "

 

[conv90]

Maybe Tesla replaced your battery when you weren’t looking. I wonder what a 100% charge yields…

Like I said , I'll charge to 100% when the UP-trend will stabilize or starts to decrease.
YES ...probably a Tesla Ranger during a night replaced the battery...

 

[DownshiftDre]

For the battery braintrust:

New Model Y (Model 3 on order)
I live in Las Vegas with extreme summer (garaged)

I use a daily scheduled departure with a Tesla Wall Connector at 11kw with charge limit set to 50%. Wife drains it to 35% worst case daily. Departs 9am and arrives 430pm.

Is it better to keep this strategy or go to a immediate charge strategy as soon as she arrives? My understanding is scheduled departure doesnt allow power draw from grid until charging and maybe having it inmediate charge is useful for any hot battery conditions or other power draw that could be needed overnight.

Interested in your responses and want to discuss.

 

[MRLR]

Well, not the best description. Very shorted and might lead to wrong conclusions.


The Degradation do not begin at 1500-2000 cycles. It begins quite short after delivery.

A Tesla Panasonic NCA might hold up 500 to 700 or maybe 1000 or so cycles if charged to 100% and discharged to 0% each time.
But it will do much more cycles if we use smaller cycles. And if we use small cycles at low SOC, they probably could last very very long.

The article do not mention calendar aging.
Calendar aging is larger than cyclic for most people to a factor of 5-10.

In short, the miles driven is just a small part of the degradation.



There isnt really a ”need” for a full charge, the battery itself do not need that.
But you shouldnt be afraid of full charges.

In my 17 months of Tesla owning and 40K km i have about one full charge per month I think or slightly more.
Full charges every now and then do not cause very much wear. My charging schedule cause so little degradation that despite some 100% charges I will have much less degradation than the average car anyway. I probably have about five of the full charges that was ”just for fun” and not really needed.
—> I do not think you should be arfraid of full charges. Doing one full charge a week and driving the car down to zero, it will take you ten years to kill the battery from this. (Calendar aging might kill it before though).

I did a 0% to 100% charge today (0.40% SOC, was the real BMS number.) The charging hadnt really stopped but I didnt have the time to stay to see the full charge.

After 41.000km and 1.5 years it still holds 79kWh. If I use 82 kWh as the origin number, I have about 3.5% degradation now.
If I look at the range, I have lost 1.8%.
The 3.5% loss is not a random number, its close to my own calculation. Degradation is predictable!

Wow! Intersting. The only issue I have is I can't charge daily at home. I can only charge at my work so the range anxiety is real! I am most likely going to keep this car for 2-3yrs 4 MAX. but who knows. It's good to know about not being afraid to charge to 100%. So maybe I may do that once in a while. Doing a 20-40 or even 50% wouldn't be too feasible for me because I keep sentry mode on which takes a lot of battery and wit just my luck my car is parked where traffic is huge. But I gotta have It on... I guess I won't stress out too much..

 

[Dave EV]

For the battery braintrust:

New Model Y (Model 3 on order)
I live in Las Vegas with extreme summer (garaged)

I use a daily scheduled departure with a Tesla Wall Connector at 11kw with charge limit set to 50%. Wife drains it to 35% worst case daily. Departs 9am and arrives 430pm.

Is it better to keep this strategy or go to a immediate charge strategy as soon as she arrives? My understanding is scheduled departure doesnt allow power draw from grid until charging and maybe having it inmediate charge is useful for any hot battery conditions or other power draw that could be needed overnight.

Interested in your responses and want to discuss.

Stick with scheduled departure.

The car won't do any active or passive cooling of the battery when the car is off unless it's very hot.

If active cooling is necessary, I imagine that it would use battery power to do so as long as it is over 20% SOC (that seems to be the magic threshold at which it decides to start disabling some things, which can be annoying - for example disabling sentry mode - which IMO it should just warn you about and then let you make the decision to keep it on or off). Would be nice to confirm, though.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

For the battery braintrust:

New Model Y (Model 3 on order)
I live in Las Vegas with extreme summer (garaged)

I use a daily scheduled departure with a Tesla Wall Connector at 11kw with charge limit set to 50%. Wife drains it to 35% worst case daily. Departs 9am and arrives 430pm.

Is it better to keep this strategy or go to a immediate charge strategy as soon as she arrives? My understanding is scheduled departure doesnt allow power draw from grid until charging and maybe having it inmediate charge is useful for any hot battery conditions or other power draw that could be needed overnight.

Interested in your responses and want to discuss.

Insulate and air condition your garage, if you really want to be optimal…

And have your wife park in the shade, haha.

 

[DownshiftDre]

Insulate and air condition your garage, if you really want to be optimal…

And have your wife park in the shade, haha.

Haha maybe for mine when it arrives.

But Im curious more on whether the plugged in (with scheduled departure ON) or plugged in (with scheduled departure OFF) makes a difference in how the car manages battery. It seems we dont really know but can make a difference.

Dont want the car to think “dont pull power from grid” because of off peak departure and risk battery taking a hit.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

makes a difference in how the car manages battery. It seems we dont really know but can make a difference.

Charging closer to departure time is incrementally better due to lower average SOC. It doesn’t change how it manages the battery. It doesn’t draw power to do anything to the battery, it just sleeps the car and opens the relays in the HPWC while plugged in. Anything else would be an enormous waste of energy. Unless it’s over 120 degrees in the garage or something - maybe it would cool then (probably has to be hotter, it is probably documented somewhere). But your battery is likely SOOL if that’s the case, anyway.

 

[DownshiftDre]

Charging closer to departure time is incrementally better due to lower average SOC. It doesn’t change how it manages the battery. It doesn’t draw power to do anything to the battery, it just sleeps the car and opens the relays in the HPWC while plugged in. Anything else would be an enormous waste of energy. Unless it’s over 120 degrees in the garage or something - maybe it would cool then (probably has to be hotter, it is probably documented somewhere). But your battery is likely SOOL if that’s the case, anyway.

Thanks. Good explanation.

I’ll keep you updated on my garage airconditoner quote lol jk

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Thanks. Good explanation.

I’ll keep you updated on my garage airconditoner quote lol jk

I guess since I don’t use cabin overheat protection it might work differently, or at least prevent use of the battery when it engages, if it is plugged in and not on scheduled departure (if it is in charge immediately mode). I have no idea.

The idea being that COP runs for 10 hours and if your garage is an inferno it might cool the car a bit in the most extreme conditions. But the thresholds (over 100 degrees?) are still pretty high, given no direct sunlight so could be of zero impact anyway.

Someone else would have to comment on how that works and if it draws power from the wall and if that depends on the charging mode when plugged in (the original question). Obviously you would not want it draining the battery (that is probably worse for the battery than just leaving it hot, but hard to say). Since these are feature/condition combinations which I am not familiar with I don’t know how it works.

 

[Dave EV]

I guess since I don’t use cabin overheat protection it might work differently, or at least prevent use of the battery when it engages, if it is plugged in and not on scheduled departure (if it is in charge immediately mode). I have no idea.

The idea being that COP runs for 10 hours and if your garage is an inferno it might cool the car a bit in the most extreme conditions. But the thresholds (over 100 degrees?) are still pretty high, given no direct sunlight so could be of zero impact anyway.

Someone else would have to comment on how that works and if it draws power from the wall and if that depends on the charging mode when plugged in (the original question). Obviously you would not want it draining the battery (that is probably worse for the battery than just leaving it hot, but hard to say). Since these are feature/condition combinations which I am not familiar with I don’t know how it works.

That's a good point, I didn't even think about cabin overheat protection.

If you use that in a closed area (like a garage) with A/C on, it potentially could make your battery hotter, since the car will run the A/C, cooling the interior, but further heating the garage. Remember the batteries are outside of the cabin, not inside. But it would have to be hotter than ~100F for that to happen.

 

[DownshiftDre]

Wow didnt even think COP in the garage. I will keep an eye on it when we get to the heat of summer. I think its going to be a lot harder to trigger COP in garage though as there is no direct sunlight which is the major driver of how COP triggers outdoors unshaded.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Wow didnt even think COP in the garage.

In most cases and most areas should not be an issue but if you have some sort of hot box of a south-facing garage with metal doors re-radiating into the interior space or something, could be a problem. If ambients are 115 degrees maybe you'd potentially have an issue. Install a good radiant barrier I guess! I'm lucky, my AC is so old and inefficient that 10% of the cooling power seems to go into the garage.

 

[JetDriver05]

Please forgive me if this has been answered already and if this is a dumb question. I’m scheduled to pick up my Model 3 Performance next week! This is my first Tesla and EV. I’ve read a little bit about charging nuances, etc and have some basic questions:

1. What are the best charging habits for a 2022 Model 3 Performance?
2. What percentage should I charge to every day? I have a Wall Connector charger installed. I’ve read that charging to 100% is not good.
3. What could I do to extend the life of my battery?

Thanks

 

[DeltaOne]

Please forgive me if this has been answered already and if this is a dumb question. I’m scheduled to pick up my Model 3 Performance next week! This is my first Tesla and EV. I’ve read a little bit about charging nuances, etc and have some basic questions:

1. What are the best charging habits for a 2022 Model 3 Performance?
2. What percentage should I charge to every day? I have a Wall Connector charger installed. I’ve read that charging to 100% is not good.
3. What could I do to extend the life of my battery?

This sub-forum has more than a few threads that have thousands of posts that cover your questions. I'll summarize what I know from hanging around here for about 13 months (and owning a Model 3).

Your best bet to extend the life of your battery would be to move to a cold climate. But I'm guessing that's not an option.

There are two main factors to battery degradation:

1) Time. Nothing you can do to change this. You'll lose the most the first year, then less the second year, then less and less each following year.

2) Time at state of charge (SOC). Day to day, the lower the SOC the better. That's why you read charging to 100% is not good. I would say the consensus around here is that adhering to a 50% to 60% SOC is optimal. But if that doesn't fit your lifestyle then adjust as necessary.

When I need the most range I use Scheduled Departure to have the car at 95% to 100% at departure time. That way the car doesn't sit around at a high SOC for a long period of time.

Bottom line...enjoy the car and don't worry too much about the battery.

 

[JetDriver05]

Thanks DeltaOne.

So, if I plug in my charger at night it sounds like I should set it to stop charging around 50%-60% (unless needing the car for a long range trip).

Is that correct?