Range-Loss Related to Heat?

[dmurphy]

Roadtripping in an ICE was pretty much rest stop to rest stop or bathroom to bathroom or coffeeshop to coffeeshop. Is there that big a difference?

Exactly right. Unless my bladder rating improves, any range beyond what I have today is wasted effort.

 

[White Shadow]

Haha, maybe the EV transition is easier for those of us, like me, who did a lot of trip planning when I had a gas vehicle?

As to some of the specifics that you mention, I sometimes wonder if Tesla should have kept their original charge strategy with the Model S, where 90% was considered a full charge, and that there was an extra setting for Trips. Psychologically, letting owners set their car for full, seems to make everyone happier, even if it can be filled a little more.

How many times have we seen people fill their gas vehicle to where the pump handle clicks off; then they pump until it clicks a couple times more? At gas stations with attendants, I remember seeing attendants add a full gallon after the first click off. Of course, now we know that filling too full can damage the vapor thingy. Still, people do it, because they like to "fill" their cars.

As for some of the other things, strangely enough, ICE vehicles may also be impacted. Headwinds have exactly the same effect upon ICE vehicles as EVs, since aerodynamics for both face the exact same laws of physics.

Gas vehicles also waste fuel running the AC compressor, just like the EV. That's why we used to have those articles telling us whether it was more efficient to run the AC or crack the window.

Really, the only big difference is cold temps. While cold affects an ICE vehicle's efficiency, it isn't nearly as much as an EV, due to the battery chemistry. With an ICE, because there are so many fluids involved, you had to warm up gently, which wastes fuel. I remember my dad running the car for 15mins before he'd drive away in the cold morning, after unplugging the engine block heater.

Then, my dad would also add dry gas fuel treatment to reduce the risk of condensation in the fuel tank from causing issues, or he'd stop at the gas station more often, to keep a full tank of fuel to prevent condensation.

Then, he'd have to check his antifreeze rating of the engine coolant, to make sure it was protecting his engine, and flush it every couple years.

Then there were the engine belts he'd check and replace since when they got really cold, they were more likely to break. On trips, he'd carry a spare belt, just in case we broke down, and the shop we stopped at didn't have the correct replacement size.

I don't have to do any of those things my dad used to do for his ICE, when Winter comes. Of course, I have to learn new things to do to prepare to drive an EV in Winter.

I remember as a kid, when roadtripping in an ICE was more complicated than today, because gas stations were not open 24/7 on the interstate. Even today, you'd look at those signs telling you where the next rest stop was, with fuel and food, and you'd try to figure out if you could make it to the next stop, or had to stop now, to refuel. Is it really all that different in an EV? And, even with lots of 24/7 places, I still find if I have to exit the highway, independent gas stations that are closed at night.

If anything, the future with EV chargers everywhere there are gas stations today, should definitely be better, since EV chargers don't require the station be "open" in the same way that a gas station needs to be "open" with at least one person there.

Certainly, Superchargers aren't ubiquitous like gas stations, but with the advent of in-built GPS, it's only a minor hardship to plan station to station. Roadtripping in an ICE was pretty much rest stop to rest stop or bathroom to bathroom or coffeeshop to coffeeshop. Is there that big a difference other than nomenclature? You still have to stop every 100 to 150 miles? Why do I care if it's at a supercharger with a coffeeshop and toilet or not?

Driving an EV means learning new habits and forgetting old ICE habits, like looking at the prices while passing a gas station, and doing all those things like my dad did, plugging in the engine block heater, adding dry gas, checking the coolant and bringing a spare belt, etc. I don't miss it.

Sure, I understand all that. But it doesn't change the fact that EV drivers (including Tesla) have to plan their trip from supercharger to supercharger when traveling long distances. ICE drivers don't even really need to plan a road trip. Just get in the car and go. And why is that? Well, gas stations are literally everywhere. Stop for 5 minujtes to fill up and be on your away again. My last road trip was from NY to Florida. My first stop was in Virginia and only because I needed gas. But I didnt' know that ahead of time. I just kept driving until I had to refuel. You can't really do that in an EV today. It requires much more planning. And that's also why headwinds, elevation changes, temperature/weather doesn't matter in a gas car. Sure, it has the same effect, but nobody cares because it's so quick and easy to refuel virtually anywhere. Only EV drivers even have to think about stuff like that.

By the way, all the stuff your dad did "back in the day" are things that are completely unnecessary today (and were probably largely unnecessary back then too) on modern ICE cars. No need to "warm up" the engine. Just start and go. No need to add dry gas, messing with the coolant, brings spare belts. Today's cars require nothing but oil changes for the first 100,000 miles or so.

No matter how you slice it, road tripping today in an EV is nothing like road tripping in an ICE car. Some day that may change, but we just aren't there yet. Not even close. Hop in a modern gas car and you can drive coast to coast with minimal to no planning at all. Do the same in an EV and your trip consists of jumping across the country going from supercharger to supercharger every 200 miles or so. Don't get me wrong, I love the idea of EVs and I can't wait until we get to the same level as ICE cars, meaning you can just hop in and go without even having to think about it. But we're still so far away from that. It's going to take a huge leap in infrastructure and battery technology to get there. When I road trip, I like to get to my desination as quickly as possible. So with my ICE car's 500+ mile range, I can get from NY to Florida with just two gas stops, which takes me about 16 hours. Now some may say that they don't mind stopping every two hours to charge because it gives them a chance to eat/stretch/go to the bathroom and that's all fine. But at the same time, I don't want to add 6 hours on to my road trip to charge. That's why I made that comment in the first place. It's just not the same things...at least yet.

 

[White Shadow]

Exactly right. Unless my bladder rating improves, any range beyond what I have today is wasted effort.

No worries then. I'm sure you can pee, eat, go shopping, and take a nap while you wait for your car to charge.

 

[dmurphy]

No worries then. I'm sure you can pee, eat, go shopping, and take a nap while you wait for your car to charge.

That’s a lot to get done in 10-15 minutes!

Seriously though, I don’t find I need to stop any longer than that for charging stops. Usually the car is ready before I am.

 

[Flybyglass]

I drove from California to New England never had range concerns and SuperChargers galore. Most fun I've had on a cross country drive.

 

[BigNick]

Today's cars require nothing but oil changes for the first 100,000 miles or so.

I remember having to carry a spare ballast resistor (a common failure item) and breaker points (just in case, but you'd usually get a warning by the car running like crap) for my Dodge Dart back in the day. And a tackle-box-sized tool kit. And also to remember the reverse-threading on the driver's side lugs!

Originally B5 blue, it had been Earl Scheibed a chalky-blue before I picked it up for $200 in my late teens, and by then it was Mostly Old Parts And Rust. The Northeast winters hadn't been kind to the steel. Punched a rod through the block of the original slant six (it never completely seized, even driving 5 miles on 5 cylinders and no oil), so I bought a Plymouth for $35 for the replacement engine.

I had made a couple of trips to Philly, but didn't trust it to go much further than 10 miles from home in its last few months.

And that wasn't even the worst car I've driven.

 

[KenC]

Sure, I understand all that. But it doesn't change the fact that EV drivers (including Tesla) have to plan their trip from supercharger to supercharger when traveling long distances. ICE drivers don't even really need to plan a road trip. Just get in the car and go. And why is that? Well, gas stations are literally everywhere. Stop for 5 minujtes to fill up and be on your away again. My last road trip was from NY to Florida. My first stop was in Virginia and only because I needed gas. But I didnt' know that ahead of time. I just kept driving until I had to refuel. You can't really do that in an EV today. It requires much more planning. And that's also why headwinds, elevation changes, temperature/weather doesn't matter in a gas car. Sure, it has the same effect, but nobody cares because it's so quick and easy to refuel virtually anywhere. Only EV drivers even have to think about stuff like that.

By the way, all the stuff your dad did "back in the day" are things that are completely unnecessary today (and were probably largely unnecessary back then too) on modern ICE cars. No need to "warm up" the engine. Just start and go. No need to add dry gas, messing with the coolant, brings spare belts. Today's cars require nothing but oil changes for the first 100,000 miles or so.

No matter how you slice it, road tripping today in an EV is nothing like road tripping in an ICE car. Some day that may change, but we just aren't there yet. Not even close. Hop in a modern gas car and you can drive coast to coast with minimal to no planning at all. Do the same in an EV and your trip consists of jumping across the country going from supercharger to supercharger every 200 miles or so. Don't get me wrong, I love the idea of EVs and I can't wait until we get to the same level as ICE cars, meaning you can just hop in and go without even having to think about it. But we're still so far away from that. It's going to take a huge leap in infrastructure and battery technology to get there. When I road trip, I like to get to my desination as quickly as possible. So with my ICE car's 500+ mile range, I can get from NY to Florida with just two gas stops, which takes me about 16 hours. Now some may say that they don't mind stopping every two hours to charge because it gives them a chance to eat/stretch/go to the bathroom and that's all fine. But at the same time, I don't want to add 6 hours on to my road trip to charge. That's why I made that comment in the first place. It's just not the same things...at least yet.

Maybe that's the issue. You think it takes 6hrs to charge on a trip from NY to Florida. I just punched in a trip in ABRP which uses real-world data from Lower Manhattan to Miami, 1283 miles, takes 17h24m and an additional 2h32m of charging. 19h56m total for 1283miles is a 64mph trip average.

You charge while you use the toilet or buy coffee or food. You don't charge in addition to those things, so total charging time isn't additional. If you do it right, it doesn't take any additional time at all.

I've driven numerous times from Maine to Florida over the years, since my family used to have a 2nd home near Daytona Beach, and my goal was always to average above 60mph including any stops for food or fuel. As shown above, you can already do that in an EV.

BTW, with ethanol gas, in New England in winter, adding dry gas is still a thing.

 

[philly4]

If the battery/BMS increase the SOC when the OVC reading is present after a drive, the BMS has an underestimate of the capacity.

This makes sense. Isn't it the opposite after a charge? Say you charge to 50% but then several hours after the charge it shows 52%. I was thinking that means the BMS had an overestimate of capacity.

 

[Candleflame]

Sure, I understand all that. But it doesn't change the fact that EV drivers (including Tesla) have to plan their trip from supercharger to supercharger when traveling long distances. ICE drivers don't even really need to plan a road trip. Just get in the car and go. And why is that? Well, gas stations are literally everywhere. Stop for 5 minujtes to fill up and be on your away again. My last road trip was from NY to Florida. My first stop was in Virginia and only because I needed gas. But I didnt' know that ahead of time. I just kept driving until I had to refuel. You can't really do that in an EV today. It requires much more planning. And that's also why headwinds, elevation changes, temperature/weather doesn't matter in a gas car. Sure, it has the same effect, but nobody cares because it's so quick and easy to refuel virtually anywhere. Only EV drivers even have to think about stuff like that.

By the way, all the stuff your dad did "back in the day" are things that are completely unnecessary today (and were probably largely unnecessary back then too) on modern ICE cars. No need to "warm up" the engine. Just start and go. No need to add dry gas, messing with the coolant, brings spare belts. Today's cars require nothing but oil changes for the first 100,000 miles or so.

No matter how you slice it, road tripping today in an EV is nothing like road tripping in an ICE car. Some day that may change, but we just aren't there yet. Not even close. Hop in a modern gas car and you can drive coast to coast with minimal to no planning at all. Do the same in an EV and your trip consists of jumping across the country going from supercharger to supercharger every 200 miles or so. Don't get me wrong, I love the idea of EVs and I can't wait until we get to the same level as ICE cars, meaning you can just hop in and go without even having to think about it. But we're still so far away from that. It's going to take a huge leap in infrastructure and battery technology to get there. When I road trip, I like to get to my desination as quickly as possible. So with my ICE car's 500+ mile range, I can get from NY to Florida with just two gas stops, which takes me about 16 hours. Now some may say that they don't mind stopping every two hours to charge because it gives them a chance to eat/stretch/go to the bathroom and that's all fine. But at the same time, I don't want to add 6 hours on to my road trip to charge. That's why I made that comment in the first place. It's just not the same things...at least yet.

ice drivers also need to plan their road trip i.e. to find cheaper or any petrol stations. evs just autoroute you. its supersimple. way more convenient to roadtrip in an EV.

 

[White Shadow]

I drove from California to New England never had range concerns and SuperChargers galore. Most fun I've had on a cross country drive.

How many days did it take to complete the trip?

 

[White Shadow]

I remember having to carry a spare ballast resistor (a common failure item) and breaker points (just in case, but you'd usually get a warning by the car running like crap) for my Dodge Dart back in the day. And a tackle-box-sized tool kit. And also to remember the reverse-threading on the driver's side lugs!

Dodge Dart, huh? Yeah, that was certainly back in the day. I'm guessing that you're 60+ years old. Thank goodness modern cars are nothing like that anymore!

 

[White Shadow]

Maybe that's the issue. You think it takes 6hrs to charge on a trip from NY to Florida. I just punched in a trip in ABRP which uses real-world data from Lower Manhattan to Miami, 1283 miles, takes 17h24m and an additional 2h32m of charging. 19h56m total for 1283miles is a 64mph trip average.

You charge while you use the toilet or buy coffee or food. You don't charge in addition to those things, so total charging time isn't additional. If you do it right, it doesn't take any additional time at all.

I've driven numerous times from Maine to Florida over the years, since my family used to have a 2nd home near Daytona Beach, and my goal was always to average above 60mph including any stops for food or fuel. As shown above, you can already do that in an EV.

BTW, with ethanol gas, in New England in winter, adding dry gas is still a thing.

Well, I'm speaking from experience. I don't remember the exact total, but I do know it was about 6 hours during our trip because we drove non-stop (except to charge) from NY (just north of NYC) to Fort Meyers in 2019 to visit family for Thanksgiving. I've doen that trip several times and It's normally a 20-hour drive, but it took us just about 26 hours in my cousin's Model 3. We did have one stop in Georgia that we had to wait a bit more than an hour to charge. But if I remember correctly, at the time there weren't many supercharging options between South Carolina and Florida.

 

[White Shadow]

ice drivers also need to plan their road trip i.e. to find cheaper or any petrol stations. evs just autoroute you. its supersimple. way more convenient to roadtrip in an EV.

Not really. Gas stations are everywhere. No need to even think about it until your gas light comes on. Then you just stop at the next rest stop or worst case, get off the next exit and there's always a gas station right there.

People who search for cheaper gas are almost always wasting their time. If they have to drive a longer distance to save a few cents per gallon, what's the net savings? In most cases, it's minimal. Sometimes, you don't save anything at all.

This is the same arguement that I see when people bring up the long lines at Costco. All of those people are willing to wait in line to save like $0.15/gallon. Any more than a 10 minute wait and it's simply not worth it. Just get gas down the road and pay the extra 15 cents without waiting at all. That's my logic. On the other hand, gas lines at Costco do move quickly because they normally have a minimum of 8 lanes and each lane typically has two or four pumps. If you consider the fact that a gas car probably averages about 5 minutes to fill up, then the math should make it obvious that those long lines do go quickly. Like everything else with Costco, their gas lines are designed to push people through quickly.

 

[jackmott]

Sure, I understand all that.

The truth is definitely not as rosy as some people make it out to be, not every road trip is exactly as fast as an ICE one, but reality is also not nearly as bad as you are making it out to be either. 6 hours added to a road trip? Which road trip? Having done lots of road trips around Texas, including to some charging challenged areas, its usually been no extra time added. Austin to Houston and on down to NASA and to an autocross, Austin to middle of nowhere east texas, Austin to galveston. All of those were just shove plug in, go pee, come back. Austin to South Padre added about 15 minutes as we needed one long charge. Austin to Palo Duro Canyon adds about 15 minutes.

Before I actually got my Model 3 though I was worried along the same lines as you, but the actual experience road tripping has been a pleasant surprise. One thing that is nice is superchargers are just so easy. You don't have to get your card out, you don't have to enter your zip code, don't have to stand around while the gas pumps, you just shove it in and leave. Saves a couple of minutes over what you think the total time difference would be. Also in the past 3 years the amount of fast chargers has increased, the speed of fast chargers has increased. This isn't P85 Model S days from 5 years ago.

 

[jackmott]

Not really. Gas stations are everywhere. No need to even think about it until your gas light comes on.

Lets say you are road tripping 10 days a year. 10 days a year you may have to spend 30 seconds "planning" (typing destination into car) and waste 10-15 minutes a day extra charging.

The other 355 days a year, you just plug in at home, saving yourself about 20-30 trips to gas stations that you never have to do. It is a net reduction in hassle, even though road trips are a little bit more tricky.

 

[dmurphy]

Lets say you are road tripping 10 days a year. 10 days a year you may have to spend 30 seconds "planning" (typing destination into car) and waste 10-15 minutes a day extra charging.

The other 355 days a year, you just plug in at home, saving yourself about 20-30 trips to gas stations that you never have to do. It is a net reduction in hassle, even though road trips are a little bit more tricky.

BINGO.

The net reduction in hassle (the other 355 days a year) make the couple minutes during a road trip more than worth it. And all that said - my bladder needs a stop every 2-3 hours anyway, so it lines up perfectly with charging stops. The car is almost always ready to go before I am. Just a quick dip in at Wawa or Sheetz is a 10 minute affair while I peruse the goodies.

 

[BigNick]

Dodge Dart, huh? Yeah, that was certainly back in the day. I'm guessing that you're 60+ years old. Thank goodness modern cars are nothing like that anymore!

Early 50s. I think it was the final year Mopars had breaker points. Early production 1972 four-door model. And so slooooow.

 

[KenC]

Well, I'm speaking from experience. I don't remember the exact total, but I do know it was about 6 hours during our trip because we drove non-stop (except to charge) from NY (just north of NYC) to Fort Meyers in 2019 to visit family for Thanksgiving. I've doen that trip several times and It's normally a 20-hour drive, but it took us just about 26 hours in my cousin's Model 3. We did have one stop in Georgia that we had to wait a bit more than an hour to charge. But if I remember correctly, at the time there weren't many supercharging options between South Carolina and Florida.

Okay, that was 2019. And I think Tesla's supercharging capacity doubles every couple years, so things have evolved as one would expect.

 

[Candleflame]

Not really. Gas stations are everywhere. No need to even think about it until your gas light comes on. Then you just stop at the next rest stop or worst case, get off the next exit and there's always a gas station right there.

People who search for cheaper gas are almost always wasting their time. If they have to drive a longer distance to save a few cents per gallon, what's the net savings? In most cases, it's minimal. Sometimes, you don't save anything at all.

This is the same arguement that I see when people bring up the long lines at Costco. All of those people are willing to wait in line to save like $0.15/gallon. Any more than a 10 minute wait and it's simply not worth it. Just get gas down the road and pay the extra 15 cents without waiting at all. That's my logic. On the other hand, gas lines at Costco do move quickly because they normally have a minimum of 8 lanes and each lane typically has two or four pumps. If you consider the fact that a gas car probably averages about 5 minutes to fill up, then the math should make it obvious that those long lines do go quickly. Like everything else with Costco, their gas lines are designed to push people through quickly.

You are thinking like an american. When you drive through europe you try to avoid most motorway petrol stations as very expensive

 

[Flybyglass]

How many days did it take to complete the trip?

3 1/2.