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Range-Loss Related to Heat?

Early 50s. I think it was the final year Mopars had breaker points. Early production 1972 four-door model. And so slooooow.

So we're the same age. Back in the late 80s, I was driving a 1988 fuel injected V8 Mustang. I missed the cars of the 70s and that's fine by me because they were pretty terrible anyway. If you remember, anything after, say, 1972 or so was just castrated by new emissions laws.
 
Lets say you are road tripping 10 days a year. 10 days a year you may have to spend 30 seconds "planning" (typing destination into car) and waste 10-15 minutes a day extra charging.

The other 355 days a year, you just plug in at home, saving yourself about 20-30 trips to gas stations that you never have to do. It is a net reduction in hassle, even though road trips are a little bit more tricky.

Can't argue that at all. Charging at home is a much better option than going to gas stations....that's for sure. But my comment was based upon only road trips and in that situation the convenience switches to gas cars by far.

FWIW, I press a button and say my destination rather than typing it in. Or better yet, I'll just pull it up on a map using my phone and send it to my car before I even get inside the car. That way really takes no time at all.
 
The truth is definitely not as rosy as some people make it out to be, not every road trip is exactly as fast as an ICE one, but reality is also not nearly as bad as you are making it out to be either. 6 hours added to a road trip? Which road trip? Having done lots of road trips around Texas, including to some charging challenged areas, its usually been no extra time added. Austin to Houston and on down to NASA and to an autocross, Austin to middle of nowhere east texas, Austin to galveston. All of those were just shove plug in, go pee, come back. Austin to South Padre added about 15 minutes as we needed one long charge. Austin to Palo Duro Canyon adds about 15 minutes.

Before I actually got my Model 3 though I was worried along the same lines as you, but the actual experience road tripping has been a pleasant surprise. One thing that is nice is superchargers are just so easy. You don't have to get your card out, you don't have to enter your zip code, don't have to stand around while the gas pumps, you just shove it in and leave. Saves a couple of minutes over what you think the total time difference would be. Also in the past 3 years the amount of fast chargers has increased, the speed of fast chargers has increased. This isn't P85 Model S days from 5 years ago.

That's still one of the biggest advantages with Tesla---the ease of supercharging. It seems like everyone else is still struggling. It would be great if every EV could plug into any charging network and not have to fumble around with payment methods. And not have to deal with broken chargers...those sorts of things. It will be interesting to see what happens when Tesla does finally open up their chargers to all other EVs in the U.S.
 

KenC

Active Member
Sep 4, 2018
4,673
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Maine
Wow. The current electric car cannonball run record is a bit more than 42 hours across the country. For gas cars, it's about 25 and a half hours. Interestingly, Google Maps calculates the drive at 42 hours, which pretty much matches the EV record.
...
Hmmm... Google maps says 42hrs, and the Tesla record is 42hrs. Seems to be no time penalty. Those guys rented a Model S, and used ABRP for planning. They say setting the speed to 112% of the speed limit, would allow them to tie the existing record, but their goal was to break it by a couple hours, so using ABRP, they calculated setting the speed up to 130% of the speed limit would be their target, with a max speed of 93mph, which is the AP limit, and using AP about 50% of the time. And, one of the two drivers had never driven a Tesla before. They said they wasted 30+ minutes with traffic.

Punching that data into ABRP, now, shows a trip time of 41h27m which includes 8h of charging, and an average speed of about 67mph.

One year ago, I drove from Maine to Denver and back, using ABRP, 2200 miles one way, so about 80% of the Cannonball run, by myself. Seeing as I set my speed to 113%, and followed it closely, using AP for 95% of the trip, it means the average driver, not doing anything special in terms of speed, can basically match the tripspeed of the old Cannonball run EV record.

For me, it was the easiest roadtrip ever. Not once did I wait at a supercharger. I averaged 17mins per charge, basically time for coffee and a toilet break, and a quick bite.

Planning using ABRP takes minimal effort, certainly no more than punching it into a GPS mapping app like Google or Apple Maps.

As for supercharger growth, I think if you do a Google search, you'll find most articles about global supercharger growth but it's clear that superchargers in the US have also been doubling every couple years. Yes, there are more cars, but adding superchargers doesn't have to be a linear relationship, due to optimization of supercharger placement. You put more where demand is more, like California and Florida and Texas, etc.
 

mswlogo

Well-Known Member
Aug 27, 2018
8,357
7,878
MA, NH
The sudden drop is probably a BMS calibration issue. But yes, heat will degrade batteries even when not in use, aka "calendar aging" so some of the drop is real.

If you can, park in cooler locations and keep the average state of charge as low as feasible. High heat multiplied by high state of charge accelerates degradation.

I think you're doing well on the battery charging schedule. But you could probably keep the state of charge even lower. Do you need to use most of the 70% for an average work day? For calendar aging, it's average daily habits that matter more than occasional excursions. A once in a while supercharger is less important especially if you start using that charge immediately. Can you keep the car lower than 50% for longer?

What I do: I set my daily charge limit to 50% (when that will be enough) and set my charging schedule for both set departure time and to charge only in super off-peak hours (midnight to 6 am). The result is that the car wakes up and charges enough to finish by 6AM so it spent more time at a lower state of charge.
I wonder if this is why all 3 of my Teslas have done extremely well on degradation.

I typically only charge to 80%. But will do 90% or 100% only as needed.

But my car is always garaged. And I always park in the shade when I can.

I will supercharge as needed. But I tend to avoid the highest speeds and I never precondition (which heats the battery). I rather the charge go a little slower.

I have never heard the roaring cooling fans or roaring AC on my 18 Model 3, 2019 X or 2022 S while supercharging.

I lost like 4 miles on the 3 in a year, 10k miles. I lost maybe 4 miles in 2.5 years and 26K miles on the X. And I don’t think I’ve any on the 2022 S in 6 month 6K miles. I have not 100% charges the S in a bit. But 80% and 90% are holding steady.
 
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Hmmm... Google maps says 42hrs, and the Tesla record is 42hrs. Seems to be no time penalty....

Um...no...lol. It's a Cannonball Run record. Meaning it was a group of guys who set out to do a no-limits run to get across the country as fast as possible. And doing so, they managed to essentially match the speed of the average trip according to Google Maps. You have to understand the algorithm used to calculated estimated driving times works and also realize that it changes with traffic data.

If I remember correctly, the Tesla spent 7 hours stopped charging to get across the country. There were many, many stops because they were following the "run the battery low and only charge until the curve starts to taper" strategy. That said, the only way to make up for all that time charging is to drive at high speeds and avoid getting pulled over by the cops. So yeah, that really doesn't equate in any way to the average Joe making his casual road trip across the country and doing it in the same 42 hours. It's about as apples and organges as you can get.

BTW, the gas powered Audi that has the current 25.5 hour record had a 45-gallon fuel cell in the trunk in addition to the regular gas tank. They only need to stop to refuel five times, which totaled just 31 minutes. They averged 110 mph (including their time stopped to refuel) and at times hit 175 mph. That's crazy, but I guess that's what it takes to drive across the country in just a little more than one day.

If you can't tell, I'm fascinated by these Cannonball Run records and just how fast they've gotten. To average 110 mph across the entire country just seems insane to me.
 

AlanSubie4Life

Efficiency Obsessed Member
Oct 22, 2018
14,286
18,427
San Diego
But I tend to avoid the highest speeds and I never precondition (which heats the battery). I rather the charge go a little slower.
It’s not clear to me this is a good idea, because you are relying on Tesla to adequately throttle the charge rate. Pushing excess charge into the battery is definitely not good. It’s presumably fine but who knows.

I have no idea, but it is something I think about if I don’t have enough preconditioning time.

Heating the battery briefly to very high temperature seems like a non issue for calendar aging.

I wonder if this is why all 3 of my Teslas have done extremely well on degradation.
What were/are they and how did they do?
 

AAKEE

Active Member
Jan 8, 2021
1,107
1,645
Sweden
It’s not clear to me this is a good idea, because you are relying on Tesla to adequately throttle the charge rate. Pushing excess charge into the battery is definitely not good. It’s presumably fine but who knows.

Yes, that right. Preheated battery cell temp to 40 degree C or more reduce the wear according to a lot of research tests. Whats happening is lithium plating and it will be reduced by a hot battery. Tesla preheat to 50C, which will be a good thing.

As it seems, as one example som panasonic nca 2170 I did get, they have high internal resistance when not heated and it sure looks like Tesla do not limit the charging speed and it seems like it is the ability to ”receive electricity” that set the limit To the charging power. This most probably means lithium plating when the battery is pushed to its own limit.

I always preheat fully if possible before Supercharging to reduce the wear.

I have no idea, but it is something I think about if I don’t have enough preconditioning time.

Heating the battery briefly to very high temperature seems like a non issue for calendar aging.

The ”increased” wear from 1-2 hours at higher temps is only about 1/8700’th of what a year at that temperature would cause. Research show that the increased temperature is very much less negative than the increased temperature is positive because of the reduced (or not occuring) lithium plating.
 

AlanSubie4Life

Efficiency Obsessed Member
Oct 22, 2018
14,286
18,427
San Diego
Mine was 4 miles. If that.
Right but 4 miles is 306 which is 75kWh and you started around 78kWh. (310miles is 76kWh, and 310mi is ALSO 78kWh.)

It’s confusing, I know! Just the way it works (as I recall you had a 2018, AWD). If you had RWD these numbers are incorrect and you had more than 4% loss [or less depending on whether it was showing 306 or 321].
 
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AlanSubie4Life

Efficiency Obsessed Member
Oct 22, 2018
14,286
18,427
San Diego
Huh, what?

4 miles out of 326 (which what is what it spec’d) is 1.2%
Ok, so you had the 2018 RWD.

So that had 325. 325mi was 76kWh. But 325mi was ALSO 78kWh (where it started).

321mi for that vehicle is 321/325*76kWh = 75kWh.

75kWh/78kWh = 96.2% of original capacity.

Just how it works. I realize it seems like bad math but it is just how it worked for these vehicles. (This is all robustly documented and confirmed now; miles become less energetic over time until hitting the degradation threshold then they stop changing their energy content.)

4% is pretty normal after a year. On the low side but also not extraordinarily good. (There are some (1) people here above 76kWh after over 3 years!)

EPA got 78kWh out of that LR RWD in 2017.

For your S & X don’t know enough about them to know how they were set up, but knowing how degradation thresholds work, generally speaking, it is not necessarily correct to just look at rated mile loss. That tends to understate loss. But depends on how far the degradation threshold is offset from new capacity. On many Model 3s now (after 2019, not inclusive) it is hardly offset at all, so it is actually a reasonably accurate way to assess loss.
 
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Haha, maybe the EV transition is easier for those of us, like me, who did a lot of trip planning when I had a gas vehicle?

As to some of the specifics that you mention, I sometimes wonder if Tesla should have kept their original charge strategy with the Model S, where 90% was considered a full charge, and that there was an extra setting for Trips. Psychologically, letting owners set their car for full, seems to make everyone happier, even if it can be filled a little more.

How many times have we seen people fill their gas vehicle to where the pump handle clicks off; then they pump until it clicks a couple times more? At gas stations with attendants, I remember seeing attendants add a full gallon after the first click off. Of course, now we know that filling too full can damage the vapor thingy. Still, people do it, because they like to "fill" their cars.

As for some of the other things, strangely enough, ICE vehicles may also be impacted. Headwinds have exactly the same effect upon ICE vehicles as EVs, since aerodynamics for both face the exact same laws of physics.

Gas vehicles also waste fuel running the AC compressor, just like the EV. That's why we used to have those articles telling us whether it was more efficient to run the AC or crack the window.

Really, the only big difference is cold temps. While cold affects an ICE vehicle's efficiency, it isn't nearly as much as an EV, due to the battery chemistry. With an ICE, because there are so many fluids involved, you had to warm up gently, which wastes fuel. I remember my dad running the car for 15mins before he'd drive away in the cold morning, after unplugging the engine block heater.

Then, my dad would also add dry gas fuel treatment to reduce the risk of condensation in the fuel tank from causing issues, or he'd stop at the gas station more often, to keep a full tank of fuel to prevent condensation.

Then, he'd have to check his antifreeze rating of the engine coolant, to make sure it was protecting his engine, and flush it every couple years.

Then there were the engine belts he'd check and replace since when they got really cold, they were more likely to break. On trips, he'd carry a spare belt, just in case we broke down, and the shop we stopped at didn't have the correct replacement size.

I don't have to do any of those things my dad used to do for his ICE, when Winter comes. Of course, I have to learn new things to do to prepare to drive an EV in Winter.

I remember as a kid, when roadtripping in an ICE was more complicated than today, because gas stations were not open 24/7 on the interstate. Even today, you'd look at those signs telling you where the next rest stop was, with fuel and food, and you'd try to figure out if you could make it to the next stop, or had to stop now, to refuel. Is it really all that different in an EV? And, even with lots of 24/7 places, I still find if I have to exit the highway, independent gas stations that are closed at night.

If anything, the future with EV chargers everywhere there are gas stations today, should definitely be better, since EV chargers don't require the station be "open" in the same way that a gas station needs to be "open" with at least one person there.

Certainly, Superchargers aren't ubiquitous like gas stations, but with the advent of in-built GPS, it's only a minor hardship to plan station to station. Roadtripping in an ICE was pretty much rest stop to rest stop or bathroom to bathroom or coffeeshop to coffeeshop. Is there that big a difference other than nomenclature? You still have to stop every 100 to 150 miles? Why do I care if it's at a supercharger with a coffeeshop and toilet or not?

Driving an EV means learning new habits and forgetting old ICE habits, like looking at the prices while passing a gas station, and doing all those things like my dad did, plugging in the engine block heater, adding dry gas, checking the coolant and bringing a spare belt, etc. I don't miss it.

Same thing in rural Australia. Many gas stations arent open 24/7. I would often do my >1000km road trips to visit partner at nighttime (no traffic, no cops, no speedcameras), usually leaving at 1830ish after work and stopping at 0100 or so to sleep until 0500 while slow charging. Or occasionally leave at 0330 in the morning and then use the first few hours of glorious empty roads.
This wouldnt actually be possible in an ICE car, especially not a performance ICE car which may only get 500km on one tank as you physicially cant refuel in the middle of the night. EVs dont care. The charger is on 24/7.
 
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KenC

Active Member
Sep 4, 2018
4,673
4,391
Maine
Um...no...lol. It's a Cannonball Run record. Meaning it was a group of guys who set out to do a no-limits run to get across the country as fast as possible. And doing so, they managed to essentially match the speed of the average trip according to Google Maps. You have to understand the algorithm used to calculated estimated driving times works and also realize that it changes with traffic data.

If I remember correctly, the Tesla spent 7 hours stopped charging to get across the country. There were many, many stops because they were following the "run the battery low and only charge until the curve starts to taper" strategy. That said, the only way to make up for all that time charging is to drive at high speeds and avoid getting pulled over by the cops. So yeah, that really doesn't equate in any way to the average Joe making his casual road trip across the country and doing it in the same 42 hours. It's about as apples and organges as you can get.

BTW, the gas powered Audi that has the current 25.5 hour record had a 45-gallon fuel cell in the trunk in addition to the regular gas tank. They only need to stop to refuel five times, which totaled just 31 minutes. They averged 110 mph (including their time stopped to refuel) and at times hit 175 mph. That's crazy, but I guess that's what it takes to drive across the country in just a little more than one day.

If you can't tell, I'm fascinated by these Cannonball Run records and just how fast they've gotten. To average 110 mph across the entire country just seems insane to me.
Well, my last comment, since it's clear you're not reading my answers to you, since I actually watched the video where the Tesla drivers detailed how they did their trip. And, no, they didn't do a "no-limits run". And, I already pointed out that in order to match the old EV record by the Taycan, they only needed to do a 112% of speed limit run. Seeing as I did a faster, 113% of speed limit drive, last Summer, for 80% of the distance, by myself, I'm sure if I had a 2nd driver, any old Joe and friend could have broken the OLD EV record. Seriously, I did 80% of the distance at a faster pace than the Porsche EV, it's all in my ABRP data log. No big deal.

The reason I chose 113% of speed limit is because the speed limit I mostly saw was 70mph or 75mph, and 13% more is 79mph or 84.75mph. Keeping your speeding to less than 10mph over, generally, won't attract the attention of the police. Definitely not apples to oranges.
 

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