Reaction to Andrej Karpathy on the Removal of Ultrasonic Sensors and Radar

We react to the @Lex Fridman podcast interview with Andrej Karpathy, the former Sr. Director of AI at Tesla, wherein Andrej explains why Tesla removed radar and ultrasonic sensors from its vehicles.

This is a clip from Tesla Motors Club Podcast #25:

You can watch Lex's interview of Andrej Karpathy on YouTube.

 

[Dewg]

So none. Got it.

What evidence do you have? We both know the outcome, but you seem to know why it happened. Pray tell.

 

[beatle]

A very logical argument, and I totally agree. However, what if Telsa didn't have sensors to install? If they had 500,000 orders pending, and only 100,000 sensor packages available, what do they do?

Other manufacturers park the vehicles until the parts come in and the vehicles are completed as ordered, or they do not allow you to order a feature that includes a restricted part, or they refund a portion of the options package that included that part. None of these are ideal and may yet frustrate buyers, but at least they are more transparent.

 

[yessuz]

A very logical argument, and I totally agree. However, what if Telsa didn't have sensors to install? If they had 500,000 orders pending, and only 100,000 sensor packages available, what do they do?

Then they sell cars without them and retrofit later. How they did with the usb ports in december 2021

 

[sleepydoc]

What evidence do you have? We both know the outcome, but you seem to know why it happened. Pray tell.

What proof do I need? I'm not the one making claims about why they removed the sensors - I don't need any evidence.

Summarizing what I've said already:

• Tesla removed the sensors with no comment or explanation why
• They have stated they can replicate all the features of USSs with cameras
• They do not have the capability to do so as evidenced by advertised/promised features they have disabled.
• Cameras regularly have issues getting occluded by glare, road grime, etc causing AP & FSD features to be limited so it's reasonable to conclude that camera based proximity features would also be impaired.
• There are areas the USSs can 'see' that cameras cannot.
• Tesla has a history of promising features and then taking far longer to deliver them than they originally estimate/promise
• With past features that Tesla has introduced they are often very buggy for months to years
• Tesla has in the past delivered cars with missing hardware to be installed by service centers once it was available (rear USB ports)

You're welcome to dispute anything here but everything is pretty much a fact with little to no conjecture so there's not much to dispute and no evidence to produce. I've never made any claims as to why they removed the sensors, just statements regarding the folly of removing and their approach to doing so.

 

[Mike7564]

Bolded part is a running theme. Not unlike the FSD video on Tesla's website, the current 200mph Top Speed advertisement for the Plaid (it's never gone over 178), and well, the rest of the list is too long to type

Don’t forget the fact they happily sell EAP for $6k even though more than half the features are non-functional for the time being.

At least it’s temporarily appropriately priced for the holidays right now.

 

[Dewg]

What proof do I need? I'm not the one making claims about why they removed the sensors - I don't need any evidence.

Summarizing what I've said already:

• Tesla removed the sensors with no comment or explanation why
• They have stated they can replicate all the features of USSs with cameras
• They do not have the capability to do so as evidenced by advertised/promised features they have disabled.
• Cameras regularly have issues getting occluded by glare, road grime, etc causing AP & FSD features to be limited so it's reasonable to conclude that camera based proximity features would also be impaired.
• There are areas the USSs can 'see' that cameras cannot.
• Tesla has a history of promising features and then taking far longer to deliver them than they originally estimate/promise
• With past features that Tesla has introduced they are often very buggy for months to years
• Tesla has in the past delivered cars with missing hardware to be installed by service centers once it was available (rear USB ports)

You're welcome to dispute anything here but everything is pretty much a fact with little to no conjecture so there's not much to dispute and no evidence to produce. I've never made any claims as to why they removed the sensors, just statements regarding the folly of removing and their approach to doing so.

The fact is they removed the sensors. I'm just trying to give a logical, rational business reason that makes the most sense.

• USS was in short supply globally
• Tesla had a good enough stockpile to last into Q3
• They couldn't find a vendor capable of satisfying their needs for the number of preorders
• TV can handle distances via new ON, and engineers likely said with a few tweaks they can replace USS with vision
• The decision to remove USS and continue deliveries makes the best financial sense
• If TV can handle parking, why retroactively replace sensors?
• Engineering is working on software solution - give em a minute to work it out

I'm just offering a reasonable explanation for all the people here constantly asking why Tesla would do this. "Why did Tesla remove USS without a solution in place?" Voila.

 

[yessuz]

The fact is they removed the sensors. I'm just trying to give a logical, rational business reason that makes the most sense.

• USS was in short supply globally
• Tesla had a good enough stockpile to last into Q3
• They couldn't find a vendor capable of satisfying their needs for the number of preorders
• TV can handle distances via new ON, and engineers likely said with a few tweaks they can replace USS with vision
• The decision to remove USS and continue deliveries makes the best financial sense
• If TV can handle parking, why retroactively replace sensors?
• Engineering is working on software solution - give em a minute to work it out

I'm just offering a reasonable explanation for all the people here constantly asking why Tesla would do this. "Why did Tesla remove USS without a solution in place?" Voila.

You either blind either delusional

Yeah, tesla could not find vendor to provide uss sensors for their 300k cars a quarter /1.2 m cars a year) while toyota with 8m cars a year and all other manufacturers combined has no issues? Yeah, right

 

[Dewg]

It's impossible to have a rational discussion with many of you, so I'll step out of this thread and let you all continue to vent.

 

[kelpcar]

It's impossible to have a rational discussion with many of you, so I'll step out of this thread and let you all continue to vent.

be serious. You're trying to justify a clear cost savings move with a number of maybes. And when called for it, you resort to this lame exit strategy.

You could just admit that Tesla crippled the functionality for monetary or supply reasons. It can't be for customer benefit, not till a new solution is made available.

When I test drove a Rivian lately, the lack of distance information when parking was one of the first things I noticed.

 

[dachshund]

You could just admit that Tesla crippled the functionality for monetary or supply reasons. It can't be for customer benefit, not till a new solution is made available.

When I test drove a Rivian lately, the lack of distance information when parking was one of the first things I noticed.

So Rivian doesn’t have the warnings either. Interesting.

 

[sleepydoc]

The fact is they removed the sensors. I'm just trying to give a logical, rational business reason that makes the most sense.

• USS was in short supply globally
• Tesla had a good enough stockpile to last into Q3
• They couldn't find a vendor capable of satisfying their needs for the number of preorders
• TV can handle distances via new ON, and engineers likely said with a few tweaks they can replace USS with vision
• The decision to remove USS and continue deliveries makes the best financial sense
• If TV can handle parking, why retroactively replace sensors?
• Engineering is working on software solution - give em a minute to work it out

I'm just offering a reasonable explanation for all the people here constantly asking why Tesla would do this. "Why did Tesla remove USS without a solution in place?" Voila.

Clearly no one can definitively say this isn't the case, and It may be, but like I've said, Tesla has never said antythign to confirm it, either, and as I've said, there were other possible courses of action.

If that was the reason then Tesla's history gives more than ample reason for concern that equivalent functionality will not be achieved in the near or even foreseeable future, and as many have posted above, there are pretty obvious reasons why cameras would be inferior. The question then becomes why would Tesla make such a compromise for what should be a temporary supply issue? They are delivering an inferior product that lacks functionality with no clear timeframe as to when (or if) full functionality will be restored.

 

[kelpcar]

So Rivian doesn’t have the warnings either. Interesting.

it does have the 360 camera overview, but never having had this, I didn't know to look. Unsure if it would satisfy my needs. The Y gets into my garage with an inch to spare on each side with the mirrors out. The Rivian will be nearly as tight with the mirrors folded.