Reaction to Andrej Karpathy on the Removal of Ultrasonic Sensors and Radar

We react to the @Lex Fridman podcast interview with Andrej Karpathy, the former Sr. Director of AI at Tesla, wherein Andrej explains why Tesla removed radar and ultrasonic sensors from its vehicles.

This is a clip from Tesla Motors Club Podcast #25:

You can watch Lex's interview of Andrej Karpathy on YouTube.

 

[jeewee3000]

I guess you would have preferred that Tesla stop selling cars when they ran out of sensors? You could emulate that by refusing delivery and waiting for Tesla to restore the functionality.

As an investor, of course I want Tesla to keep selling. As a customer, I'd prefer they only deliver cars with full park functionality (be it USS or Vision, I don't care as long as it does the job). In my case I couldn't refuse delivery since my old car was breaking down.

 

[Supcom]

As an investor, of course I want Tesla to keep selling. As a customer, I'd prefer they only deliver cars with full park functionality (be it USS or Vision, I don't care as long as it does the job). In my case I couldn't refuse delivery since my old car was breaking down.

If I were in your position, I do believe that I would be glad that Tesla found a way to keep from parking my new car in a stadium lot until a bag full of USS sensors showed up. Obviously, I would have preferred they be able to make the software change before things became critical, but at least they can keep delivering cars.

 

[sleepydoc]

I guess you would have preferred that Tesla stop selling cars when they ran out of sensors? You could emulate that by refusing delivery and waiting for Tesla to restore the functionality.

you're presenting a false choice here. Tesla absolutely could have delivered the cars without the sensors and added them once they were available. Beyond that, I haven't seen anything from Tesla saying that's why they eliminated the sensors. All I've seen is people here making that excuse.

 

[Supcom]

you're presenting a false choice here. Tesla absolutely could have delivered the cars without the sensors and added them once they were available. Beyond that, I haven't seen anything from Tesla saying that's why they eliminated the sensors. All I've seen is people here making that excuse.

Yes, they could. But the result is basically the same, with owners receiving cars lacking functionality. In addition, Tesla would need to absorb a huge cost of installing the sensors after production for thousands of vehicles.

And, if future delivery rates of USS sensors do not greatly exceed what is required for production, Tesla will prioritize production needs, thus pushing out retrofit of delivered cars even further than is likely to take to implement the camera substitute. This is exactly what happened to me with the CCS-compatible charge module. My car was built in late 2021 during a window when Tesla was short on the newer CCS-compatible modules. So, the delivered the car with the older module. Works great with a supercharger, but cannot be used with a CCS fast charger, even if I had the CCS adapter.

Tesla will retrofit my car to the new module, but no appointments are available until (maybe) 2023. Yet, Tesla is installing CCS-compatible modules in new cars today. That's exactly what would happen if Tesla simply delivered cars with no USS sensors.

It's a shame that Tesla cannot just reprogram my charge module from an OTA update like they will be able to do once they complete the USS emulation software.

 

[Rod82272534]

Yes Tesla ripped off all the old and new customers.

 

[Just a Reader]

Millions of scraped bumpers argue against the claim that (human) vision alone is perfectly sufficient to navigate a car in tight spaces. That's why USS was introduced. People should also keep in mind that this is far more of an issue when parking in European city centres than in the US.

 

[2101Guy]

I fully agree that Tesla probably knows what it's doing with the removal of the USS in the long run. The occupancy network clearly gives them decent object proximity data so the implementation is merely a software problem.

What I don't agree with is the decision to remove USS before Tesla Vision offers equal functionality. In a mere few days I'm picking up my first Tesla ever (Model Y) and I'm already worried manoeuvering the car around in tight spaces since it's the most expensive car I've ever owned and I haven't got the chance to get used to the dimensions yet.

If I were used to a Model Y for years with USS and then the functionality were to drop I could estimate distances from the bumpers quite well. Now I'll just have to do the old "stop when you're still sure and get out of the car to check a few times"-method.

Don't get me wrong, I'm pro Tesla and pro Tesla Vision. But they are handling this clumsily. The parking proximity functionality better be in the holiday update...

It won’t be in the holiday update. And if history is any indication, don’t expect those functions to re-appear for many months. And when it does, expect them to be “beta” for several years

 

[enemji]

Millions of scraped bumpers argue against the claim that (human) vision alone is perfectly sufficient to navigate a car in tight spaces. That's why USS was introduced. People should also keep in mind that this is far more of an issue when parking in European city centres than in the US.

Valet drivers have been parking perfectly without any USS forever. So it depends

 

[sleepydoc]

Valet drivers have been parking perfectly without any USS forever. So it depends

The message on my sceen, “camera occluded. Autopilot not available” is what makes me lack faith in the vision solution. The USSs can get occluded in heavy sleet or snow, but it is quite uncommon. I get the message about the cameras on a regular basis.

 

[enemji]

The message on my sceen, “camera occluded. Autopilot not available” is what makes me lack faith in the vision solution. The USSs can get occluded in heavy sleet or snow, but it is quite uncommon. I get the message about the cameras on a regular basis.

I hear you. I think that is what they are working on - to be able to visualize and capture the surroundings as you move and use that as a means to recreate what I mentioned above.

 

[sleepydoc]

I hear you. I think that is what they are working on - to be able to visualize and capture the surroundings as you move and use that as a means to recreate what I mentioned above.

The problem is the cameras are inherently more susceptible to occlusion and degradation than the ultrasonic sensors are, especially the rear camera.

We just got back from a trip down to Madison, WI and every time I had to back into a supercharger spot the rear camera was almost unusable because the image was so blurred.

 

[yessuz]

Often the stand by argument for against USS removal is parking and assumed cameras can’t overcome this challenge yet cameras are able to control at 80 mph. So apparently a camera can’t perform the task of driving .02 mph into a garage??

YES - because maybe there is something just below bonnet/rear bumper what would be detected by all other parking assistants using USS but is not visible for a cam? There might a bike or anything else which is not visible but would be picked up by the uss.. simples

 

[Yelobird]

YES - because maybe there is something just below bonnet/rear bumper what would be detected by all other parking assistants using USS but is not visible for a cam? There might a bike or anything else which is not visible but would be picked up by the uss.. simples

Your in luck then as the current USS sensors don’t read below the bumper either!

 

[yessuz]

Your in luck then as the current USS sensors don’t read below the bumper either!

Not the bumper!

 

[yessuz]

Picture is better than 1000 words...

1) well, vision... right.

taken from @MrBadger post.

2) then this... my 2015 ford mondeo/fusion could perform this task with 100% accuracy. Had uss + very bad camera..

3) then this one - is a bit annoying, but hey,..

4) I, somehow, have a suspicion that the fence on the picture on the right is a bit closer than 82 cm (2.7 feet?)

5) here - bike is somewhat invisible to vision only parking assistant.

6) good luck with vision only here as well.

7)

https://twitter.com/x/status/1590442569657647105

8)

Should I continue?

if you cannot see the problem when tesla just sends an update and cripples the car and how the "improvements" are not the improvements at all, well then.. I am speechless

 

[Mullermn]

Picture is better than 1000 words...

1) well, vision... right.
View attachment 886968
taken from @MrBadger post.

2) then this... my 2015 ford mondeo/fusion could perform this task with 100% accuracy. Had uss + very bad camera..

3) then this one - is a bit annoying, but hey,..
View attachment 886969

4) I, somehow, have a suspicion that the fence on the picture on the right is a bit closer than 82 cm (2.7 feet?)

View attachment 886970View attachment 886971


5) here - bike is somewhat invisible to vision only parking assistant.
View attachment 886972

6) good luck with vision only here as well.
View attachment 886973

7)

https://twitter.com/x/status/1590442569657647105

8)

Should I continue?

if you cannot see the problem when tesla just sends an update and cripples the car and how the "improvements" are not the improvements at all, well then.. I am speechless

Which update has crippled the car?

 

[Mardak]

I, somehow, have a suspicion that the fence on the picture on the right is a bit closer than 82 cm (2.7 feet?)

View attachment 886970View attachment 886971

What are you trying to suggest here? That Tesla Vision for distances 1) is bad or 2) will be bad or 3) will be better or 4) something else?

 

[yessuz]

Which update has crippled the car?

the one which disabled USS / switched to vision only?!

edit: radar not uss in this case

 

[yessuz]

What are you trying to suggest here? That Tesla Vision for distances 1) is bad or 2) will be bad or 3) will be better or 4) something else?

1 I suppose?

or you disagree, even with the straightforward evidence?

I would understand if you would be on Vision only IF you have it sorted and it is working 100%. but it is not. the functionality of the car has been reduced.

 

[Huskyf]

the one which disabled USS / switched to vision only?!

Sorry for YOU BUT Tesla doesn't deactivated USS on car with USS only car without USS the distance cm is deactivated