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Really? Is no one talking about the Chevy Bolt?

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This is my first post here on the TMC forum. I own a '19 Bolt with Korean made batteries, the exact demographic of Bolts that like to go up in flames. After a lot of reading and researching, I'm convinced that GM has a design problem, not a manufacturing problem. The pouch cells that are used in the Bolt do a good deal of outgassing at the very bottom and very top of the charging range. Other EV manufacturers that use pouch cells leave a buffer so the battery is not fully charged or discharged, but the Bolt uses 100% of the battery. Chevy keeps talking about manufacturing defects, but I think that is BS, as is evident by their guidance to not fully charge or discharge until this situation is cleared up.

Anyway, I'm going to dump the Bolt and order a Model 3 LR as soon as Chevy replaces my battery, which should certainly help the resale value. I look forward to joining the fraternity of Tesla owners. 👍
 
This is my first post here on the TMC forum. I own a '19 Bolt with Korean made batteries, the exact demographic of Bolts that like to go up in flames. After a lot of reading and researching, I'm convinced that GM has a design problem, not a manufacturing problem. The pouch cells that are used in the Bolt do a good deal of outgassing at the very bottom and very top of the charging range. Other EV manufacturers that use pouch cells leave a buffer so the battery is not fully charged or discharged, but the Bolt uses 100% of the battery. Chevy keeps talking about manufacturing defects, but I think that is BS, as is evident by their guidance to not fully charge or discharge until this situation is cleared up.

Anyway, I'm going to dump the Bolt and order a Model 3 LR as soon as Chevy replaces my battery, which should certainly help the resale value. I look forward to joining the fraternity of Tesla owners. 👍

That's consistent with what Elon said in July WRT Bolt fires: "Large pouch cells undergo significant volumetric changes at high state of charge". I tend to listen when Elon speaks because he's rarely wrong on technical matters.

So you think the outgassing is causing the pouch to burst?
 
That's consistent with what Elon said in July WRT Bolt fires: "Large pouch cells undergo significant volumetric changes at high state of charge". I tend to listen when Elon speaks because he's rarely wrong on technical matters.

So you think the outgassing is causing the pouch to burst?
Seems to be the most likely situation, but I'm far from an expert on the technical side of batteries. An uneducated guess.
 
It gets even worse no more Bolt sales plus recall

 
It gets even worse no more Bolt sales plus recall


Right, although the Bolt manufacturing stoppage is being blamed on chip shortages. We won't really know the real reason for the manufacturing stoppage until chip supply resumes.
 
So what it took them 4 years to get enough batteries for the Bolts currently on the road. Sure battery production has increased since then, but unless they stop making new Bolt EV/EUVs how long will it take them to replace all the batteries? 2 or 3 years? How many will have self immolated by then? (Which they apparently think absolves them of warranty liabilities.)
 
Chevy expands recall to include through 2022 chevy bolts... says:
"Yes, Washington Post reports "The company said it will not produce or sell any more Bolts until it is satisfied that problems have been worked out in LG batteries, Flores said. ""

Yeah, they only mention replacing defective modules. Are they declaring that all modules are defective, or are they still going to try to diagnosis them via software and only replace the ones that they think are defective?

As for the latter, as I posted at Chevy expands recall to include through 2022 chevy bolts..., Chevy's FB account replied with this text.
We are replacing all battery modules in 2017-2019 model year Bolt EVs in order to provide these customers with our latest cell technology, which offers GM’s most advanced Bolt chemistry and additional battery capacity.

Customers who own 2020-2022 model year vehicles already have this technology in their vehicles, and selectively replacing only bad modules in these vehicles will help speed up the recall repair process for everyone. We are working on a process to identify which modules are defect-free and which need to be replaced. Once we have a validated process, we will be able to replace only those modules that are actually defective.
I have a '19 Bolt that wasn't recalled (had a US-made pack) until today.

From a quick look at General Motors to Recall Additional Bolt EVs, it seems to have the same or similar verbiage as Chevrolet EV Group : General Motors is voluntarily expanding the current Chevrolet Bolt EV recall to cover the remaining 2019 and all 2020-2022 model year vehicles, including the Bolt EUV. They've finally come forward with what they believe the cause is:
"In rare circumstances, the batteries supplied to GM for these vehicles may have two manufacturing defects – a torn anode tab and folded separator – present in the same battery cell, which increases the risk of fire."

Previously, they wouldn't answer (example at [UPDATED] GM announces recall after a dozen Bolt EV Fires; 6 key questions with answers from GM "Q: What are the two defects that were found? A: We are unable to provide this information.")

Previously, at best, it was just a reference to latent manufacturing cell defects in their docs they submitted to NHTSA which the public can see. Examples: search https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/rcl/2021/RCLRPT-21V560-6162.PDF for defects and https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/rcl/2020/RCLRPT-20V701-7407.PDF for latent.

Also, GM had maintained that the defective cells only came from LG's Ochang, South Korea plant. Some model year '19 Bolts got Korean batteries and some got US batteries. (All '17 and '18 Bolts got Korean batteries and thus all of those were originally recalled.) All '20+ Bolts were supposed to have US batteries. Examples at Q2 and Q12 of https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/rcl/2020/RMISC-20V701-9809.pdf and page 1 of https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/rcl/2020/RCLRPT-20V701-7407.PDF. But the '20 Bolt that caught fire earlier this week should've had US-made batteries.

If people are curious, someone else has been maintaining Fire recalls timeline and I've been adding in relevent public docs submitted by GM to NHTSA when they pop up.
 
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Will they launch the Hummer and lyriq etc during the bolt battery replacement too? And carry on making and selling new bolt? That seems rough on their existing customers.
Those use a different type of battery architecture (Ultium) so they are saying those are not affected (although given they are still high energy pouch cells like in the Bolt and it's another LG partnership, GM better examine the manufacturing process far more thoroughly this time).
Ultium's Flexible, Unique, Battery Cells | General Motors

They are halting sales of the Bolt until they are satisfied by the fix, plus they said earlier the plant was idling Bolt and Bolt EUV production due to chip shortage anyways.
Chevy Bolt EV & EUV Production To Halt Soon: GM To Idle EV Plant
 
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Reactions: mark95476
Someone started Pouch cells + No buffer: The underlying problem?. FWIW, Leaf uses pouch cells but from AESC and I know of no known fires caused by its batteries. Nissan marks 10 years of LEAF sales, with over 500,000 sold worldwide is from Dec 2020. There are FAR more Leafs on the road than there are Bolts and Leaf went on sale Dec 2010.

I pointed to a table on page 26 of Automotive Li-Ion Batteries: Current Status and Future Perspectives (Journal Article) | DOE PAGES (you have to click a green button) that lists some suppliers and formats. Renault Zoe uses LG Chem pouch cells it seems and per RENAULT, LEADER OF EV SALES IN EUROPE - Newsroom Renault Group from Dec 2020, over 268K units have been sold.

Interesting video at
from Pouch cells + No buffer: The underlying problem? about LG Chem's stacking and folding process described on page 6 of https://www.energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2014/03/f10/arravt001_es_koo_2012_p.pdf.

I didn't realize this until the chatter there. I don't believe Leaf's AESC pouch cells having this folding at all. I believe theirs are just stacked.
 
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Someone started Pouch cells + No buffer: The underlying problem?. FWIW, Leaf uses pouch cells but from AESC and I know of no known fires caused by its batteries. Nissan marks 10 years of LEAF sales, with over 500,000 sold worldwide is from Dec 2020. There are FAR more Leafs on the road than there are Bolts and Leaf went on sale Dec 2010.

I pointed to a table on page 26 of Automotive Li-Ion Batteries: Current Status and Future Perspectives (Journal Article) | DOE PAGES (you have to click a green button) that lists some suppliers and formats. Renault Zoe uses LG Chem pouch cells it seems and per RENAULT, LEADER OF EV SALES IN EUROPE - Newsroom Renault Group from Dec 2020, over 268K units have been sold.

Interesting video at
from Pouch cells + No buffer: The underlying problem? about LG Chem's stacking and folding process described on page 6 of https://www.energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2014/03/f10/arravt001_es_koo_2012_p.pdf.

I didn't realize this until the chatter there. I don't believe Leaf's AESC pouch cells having this folding at all. I believe theirs are just stacked.
I doubt the buffer has to do with it. Non-defective cells should be able to handle full charge (and discharge) just fine.

As for the cell design, LG claims their "stack and folding" method is patented, so I doubt the Leaf is using a similar design. The diagram in your video shows the LG method the best:
lg_stack_folding.jpg

There's a deep dive here including a cross section of the cells and shows the entire cell/module/pack design:
A Review of the Chevy Bolt Powertrain | TechInsights
Key picture (cells are stacked more like library cards would be in a drawer):
Figure4.jpg

Hyundai claims it was a folded anode tab that was the cause (this may be incorrectly translated), something that LG denies. GM says "combination of a torn anode tab and a folded separator". Perhaps this more accurately describes the potential problem.

You are right that the Zoe does use very similar looking cells (and module design is similar also). Do note however, it's using completely different battery chemistry and lower energy density:
renault-zoe-battery-cells.jpg

Renault ZOE R240 Battery Capacity - 23.3 kWh Usable, 26 kWh Total
Initially I though that edge around the cells may be a sign of conventional laminated, but it seems that even LG's "stack & folding" cells in the Bolt and Kona have that edge (they just use tape to tape it down, you can see the 6 pieces of yellow tape doing so in the Bolt example).

As a sanity check, I looked up how long ago LG had this design, and even this article in 2010 mentioned it, so it can't be eliminated that the Zoe's cells might use this technique also:
"The company also holds a unique technology called stack and folding, which stacks the cathode, separator and anode and folds into a tight shape, preventing any kind of performance loss or deformations that competitors with winding methods showed."
Powering the electric car revolution

From here, the drawings for the Nissan cells suggest a conventional stacked and laminated structure, with no folding:
2018 Nissan Leaf battery technology, a deep dive
There's a deep dive here:
Nissan LEAF Teardown: Lithium-ion battery pack structure - MarkLines Automotive Industry Portal
Key picture and description here, the cells are sized more like a sheet of paper and stacked like in a folder.
rep1786_011_l.jpg

The glued cell is shown being peeled off. The cell has a compact and simple structure called a laminate type cell, of which the thin film cathodes and anodes and separators are cut, stacked, and sandwiched with laminate film and then sealed.
 
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Whether the Bolt has a buffer at the top and bottom has been debated for years. Whether it's related to these fires is another point of debate. I'm not sure I believe it either. I agree that "non-defective cells should be able to handle full charge (and discharge) just fine."

Once the "final remedy" came out in April/May 2021 (that was supposed to restore charging to 100%,see Q14 of https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/rcl/2020/RMISC-20V701-9809.pdf) and "final remedy" applied cars started catching fire, GM then added charge only to 90% max and don't go below 70 miles on the GOM (which is pretty fuzzy/problematic) advice: https://archive.is/n0jlh to the recalled '17 to '19 Bolts, but not the rest (non-recalled '19 and all '20+ Bolt EV/EUV).

Now today, it's become a dumpster fire with ALL of them recalled.
 
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Whether the Bolt has a buffer at the top and bottom has been debated for years. Whether it's related to these fires is another point of debate. I'm not sure I believe it either. I agree that "non-defective cells should be able to handle full charge (and discharge) just fine."

Once the "final remedy" came out in April/May 2021 (that was supposed to restore charging to 100%,see Q14 of https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/rcl/2020/RMISC-20V701-9809.pdf) and "final remedy" applied cars started catching fire, GM then added charge only to 90% max and don't go below 70 miles on the GOM (which is pretty fuzzy/problematic) advice: https://archive.is/n0jlh.
To be fair, full charge and discharge may make a defective cell catch on fire more easily (the cell expands with the SOC), so it can be a contributing factor. But I highly doubt it's a root cause.
 
They are halting sales of the Bolt until they are satisfied by the fix, plus they said earlier the plant was idling Bolt and Bolt EUV production due to chip shortage anyways.
Chevy Bolt EV & EUV Production To Halt Soon: GM To Idle EV Plant
As Chevy Bolt recall expands, some dealers 'in a world of pain' now claims:
"On Thursday, GM halted production of Bolt EVs and EUVs at its Orion Assembly plant in Lake Orion for the next two weeks "as a result of a battery pack shortage," from the recall, a company alert obtained by The News said. Production was also down this week because of the global semiconductor shortage, which has cost the industry millions of vehicles."
 
As Chevy Bolt recall expands, some dealers 'in a world of pain' now claims:
"On Thursday, GM halted production of Bolt EVs and EUVs at its Orion Assembly plant in Lake Orion for the next two weeks "as a result of a battery pack shortage," from the recall, a company alert obtained by The News said. Production was also down this week because of the global semiconductor shortage, which has cost the industry millions of vehicles."
Yeah, it looks like PR may have been hiding the real reason. My guess is when they released the first statement they were not necessarily sure about the scale of the recall they wanted to go with yet.