Roadster 3.0

[wiztecy]

I honestly wound not want old / "aged" packs going into my 1.5! Again, these cells age over time. Some people don't even do cool-downs to extend their pack's longevity, and again, packs coming in for the most part are going to be in the 140-146 CAC range and I don't want that let alone to go and have my Roadster put back in the shop to have an aged pack replaced again if the 1st swap prematurely died/degradation occurred faster than expected. I've been there, had a pack replaced under warranty, then a refurb pack thrown in and it never climbed the CAC up to an acceptable range. So what happened, my time and car had to go back into Tesla for another swap.

That plan is *unacceptable* in my business and car enthusiast mind.

And the real problem is that Tesla didn't announce the incompatibility issue until *after* people placed their orders. No word of the incompatibility on the order page, even days after the order no word. We were all in the dark. That needs to be fixed on Tesla's side. It is not professional nor the correct way to support loyal and supportive customers who were there through thick and thin.

Tesla is turning into a large public company, great. I'm happy for their success and that's exactly were we wanted them to be. However they cannot run this company as if its still a start-up and they must not forget the grass-root customers who were Tesla's best and most inexpensive advertising campaign.

 

[smac]

That plan is *unacceptable* in my business and car enthusiast mind.

And the real problem is that Tesla didn't announce the incompatibility issue until *after* people placed their orders. No word of the incompatibility on the order page, even days after the order no word. We were all in the dark. That needs to be fixed on Tesla's side. It is not professional nor the correct way to support loyal and supportive customers who were there through thick and thin.

Tesla is turning into a large public company, great. I'm happy for their success. However they cannot run this company as if its still a start-up and they must not forget the grass-root customers.

@wiztecy I too think it's unacceptable morally, but doesn't mean to say legally it's unacceptable.

I think you are right Tesla is turning into a large corporate. Let's face it, large corporates simply don't care, it's all about the numbers

 

[dpeilow]

smac We've spoken about this here and on SpeakEV.

If the BRO specifies the new replacement pack has 53 kWh then there is no way they will be using repurposed cells from 2.x cars, regardless of whether there is a sufficient supply of them.

Can someone with a 1.5 and BRO please confirm that their agreement states 53 kWh?

 

[FANGO]

Tesla is turning into a large public company, great. I'm happy for their success and that's exactly were we wanted them to be. However they cannot run this company as if its still a start-up and they must not forget the grass-root customers who were Tesla's best and most inexpensive advertising campaign.

Yep, this needs to be said over and over and over. Tesla needs to start acting like a company with 10k employees, not 40 employees. The communication has always been bad but this is really ridiculous. And other departments as well.

I don't even want the damn "upgrade", but you're gonna tell us about it for a year then change your mind after releasing it? Insane.

 

[Gary1M]

The silence and lack of communication about what lies ahead for the 500 Roadsters excluded from this life-extending option is what I find unacceptable. Since announcing this battery upgrade and determining somewhere along the way it would only apply to 2.0 and up, did Tesla not think that the immediate response from 1.5 owners would be "what about us?"?

I'm just looking for some basic business communication from Tesla about what is the plan for 1.5. If there is no plan, then that's a whole different (and most concerning) issue.

 

[Curt]

Can someone with a 1.5 and BRO please confirm that their agreement states 53 kWh?

Indeed, it does. It actually says "at least 53kWh".

 

[smac]

smac We've spoken about this here and on SpeakEV.

If the BRO specifies the new replacement pack has 53 kWh then there is no way they will be using repurposed cells from 2.x cars, regardless of whether there is a sufficient supply of them.

Can someone with a 1.5 and BRO please confirm that their agreement states 53 kWh?

I agree, to hit the 53kWh usable number they will probably need fresh cells. Saying that if, as has been suggested they are using Sanyo 18650F's, there is a fair bit over over capacity buffer so they could relax that.

Assuming this isn't the case it still leaves the problem unless they go for some off brand torch batteries, where are they going to get fresh cells? AFAIK all the premium manufacturers have moved on to better tech or moved away from 18650 altogether. If even half the cars had BRO they need to find nearly 2 million now obsolete cells. Quite frankly which battery manufacturer other than Panasonic is going to not see they have Tesla over a barrel and screw them over on price? (And this is before we factor in Tesla has made it clear they are to be a future competitor)

I take your point they could set up a run at the Gigafactory, and they'd need to reconfigure a dedicated a line to producing them. I'm not a battery worker but if this was easy they could go back to Panasonic/Sanyo and ask them to reconfigure one of their lines for another run of the old tech. This would seem even more crazy than doing the work to fix whatever issue is precluding the upgrade for the 1.5, be upfront say this is a supply issue, apologize that the person needs to pay more but in return gets more range.

There's still a huge amount of brand loyalty and some may just let this slide, after all they are getting a better car... Of course there's a risk others will dig their heels in and demand the new pack for the BRO price.

I guess until someone actually demands their BRO, irrespective of the wording, we simply won't know. (In the meantime we will just have to agree to disagree on where and how this will pan out)

 

[jeremyz]

It was really smart for A/C Propulsion and then Tesla to use fully cost reduced 18650 cells in EVs. I think in the long-run, it's going to become a support liability for Tesla for batteries that don't use the larger cells that the gigafactory will produce.

On a tangent, our 2011 Leaf qualified for a battery capacity warranty replacement about a month ago. I've waited to take it in until the 2016 Leaf with the 30kWh battery was announced (which happened today). I should find out in the next week or so if I can pay the difference and buy the new, larger battery for my first generation Leaf. It would be a sad state of affairs if Nissan allows me to upgrade the battery in our Leaf, but Tesla wouldn't allow me to upgrade the battery in my Roadster 1.5.

 

[Austrianer]

Interesting to read that Roadster 1.5 owners do not get the battery upgrade.
I'm a Roadster 2.5 owner from Europe, but I do not make use of the new upgrade now because I've only 12000 miles on my battery pack.

As mentioned in this thread Tesla should not forget the Roadster owners, especially the early ones. For me the Roadster isn't a car which I want to drive for a few years only and then throw it away like any other car, I want to drive the Roadster as long as possible. And as so many other Roadster owners I made advertisement for Tesla, many many people came in contact with me and the Roadster and most of them are now huge Tesla fans.
But I often thought about how long Tesla would support the Roadster.

I'm working in a technical area and in my opinion it should not be a big deal for Tesla to modernize the PEM and battery, maybe also the powertrain. With their experience in the Roadster and Models S they should be able to design a new PEM and battery in no time, PEMs and batteries with improved quality and which should be replacements for any version of Roadsters. Of course it's a question of production and the price, but it's sad to hear, their new battery upgrade isn't ready for 1.5 Roadsters.

 

[bobinfla]

Almost a week into another PR gaff and still no communication from Tesla to the masses concerning the now limited lifespan of the 1.5s. Maybe there is a plan in the works, and if so, some communication would be nice (even just saying "we're working on something, will get back to you later, don't panic"), but that is not the Tesla way. Very disappointing.

Brings the cynic out in me, and I have the feeling that at least this is saving me from the next uproar. "You took my deposit 6 months ago, and I was #4 on the list, but you still haven't contacted me to schedule it. What do you mean the certification testing that was going to happen last July isn't actually completed yet? And you still can't say when you're going to start fulfilling orders?" Good luck to the folks who have moved on to the next level of waiting.

There, that felt good. :smile:

 

[dhrivnak]

I did receive this reassurance from a service manager.


"No David, I can assure you that if something to pack fails, we will be able to rebuild it in charge you just the cost of rebuilding it and not a replacement"

So it seems tthey at least have a plan to keep us on the road.

 

[ecarfan]

I did receive this reassurance from a service manager.
"No David, I can assure you that if something to pack fails, we will be able to rebuild it in charge you just the cost of rebuilding it and not a replacement"
So it seems tthey at least have a plan to keep us on the road.

If only we had an explanation from Tesla as to why the cells used in the 3.0 battery cannot be used to replace the cells in the 1.5 battery. Or maybe they can but the 1.5 PEM cannot be modified to accept them? Obviously there is a technical explanation.
And also an explanation as to how Tesla can use the cell type originally used for Roadster batteries to fix failed 1.5 batteries in the future. Or perhaps Tesla is using a different cell type because the original type is no longer produced? Or Tesla is using the original type that are now out of production and having been sitting in storage for years? But then what about age degradation, is that an issue?
So many questions begging for answers. If we had answers, then 1.5 owners might have more confidence in the future viability of their vehicles, and in their future market value.

 

[dhrivnak]

I do agree and because of the lack of communication I am really thinking about selling my 1.5. It may be time for me to move on. Assuming I find a buyer.

 

[shrink]

we all should pull together and voice as a whole support for the 1.5 Roadsters for the new ESS or an equivalent upgrade path.

I wholeheartedly agree. I'm very surprised and disappointed by the 1.5's incompatibility. I truly hope Tesla comes up with a viable upgrade option.

 

[strider]

I do agree and because of the lack of communication I am really thinking about selling my 1.5. It may be time for me to move on. Assuming I find a buyer.

Do you need the upgrade to continue using the car? If not that seems a little extreme to me. Tesla has BRO's out there for 1.5's. There's no way they can get 53kWh with old cells as the cells will have age-degraded below where that is possible. So Tesla will have to come up with some kind of solution for the 1.5's that involves new cells in some way shape or form. To me this is just classic Tesla, "we're already behind schedule, we need to ship something, let's do the easy upgrade first and worry about the rest later" (although I'm not affected by this so it's easy for me to say). I can't recall off the top of my head but they have some time before the BROs come into effect so if you still enjoy the car I'd keep enjoying it.

 

[tomsax]

The v1.5 BRO is already in effect. There are Roadsters past their seventh anniversary, and BRO has the option of turning in before the 7-year mark at the owner's discretion (and for additional cost).

Have any v1.5 owners exercised their BRO option? I know some were waiting for the v3.0 battery upgrade to see how that affected things.

This whole thing is a customer service and communications bungle that's an epic fail even on the Tesla scale.

 

[dhrivnak]

My fear is with the Roadster battery chemistry out of production for a number of years, they may not be able to honor a full pack rebuild/replacement. But if they do and since I do no have the battery replacement what would it cost for a "new" battery? In the past cost was about $40k for failed packs out of warranty. So even if Tesla has several thousand cells on cold storage I have to ask myself would I really pay $40k for a 50KW pack? Maybe the packs will last 20 years but from what I know about the chemistry used in the cells 10 years is pushing it unless always kept cool in storage mode. That is not a good option for a car that is driven.

The Roadster has and will remain a great ride, but an expensive one. So unless I hear something clear in the next few weeks I will likely test the market. I really hope at a minimum they will give us some direction and hope for the future.

 

[hcsharp]

Do you need the upgrade to continue using the car? If not that seems a little extreme to me. Tesla has BRO's out there for 1.5's. There's no way they can get 53kWh with old cells as the cells will have age-degraded below where that is possible. So Tesla will have to come up with some kind of solution for the 1.5's that involves new cells in some way shape or form. To me this is just classic Tesla, "we're already behind schedule, we need to ship something, let's do the easy upgrade first and worry about the rest later" (although I'm not affected by this so it's easy for me to say). I can't recall off the top of my head but they have some time before the BROs come into effect so if you still enjoy the car I'd keep enjoying it.

Well said. I think many 1.5 owners are jumping to wild conclusions based on their worst fears. If they have BROs then obviously they have a way of replacing your pack with a 53kWh pack. That's not abandonment on the scale that many of you are suggesting. The biggest problem I see is a lack of communication.

Here's a few things we know:

• Tesla wants to support Roadster owners, all of them.
• Tesla has a serious shortage of engineers, and a new model being released which compounds the problem. Many people are still waiting for autopilot features promised a long time ago. There are a lot more of these people than 1.5 owners. They may very well be planning on supporting a 3.0 pack for the 1.5s but just aren't sure yet when they'll have time to finish it up, so they haven't told us yet. That's not our fault of course, and does not excuse the lack of communication.
• A lot of 1.5s have BROs, so we know they will have replacement 53kWh packs at the very least.
• We know the sheets are interchangeable between versions so they probably encountered a hardware or firmware problem they didn't expect and haven't finished the solution.

...
This whole thing is a customer service and communications bungle that's an epic fail even on the Tesla scale.

Indeed. You'd think they'd let us know something. Usually Tesla eventually makes things right. Let's hope that happens again.

 

[rlang59]

Not knowing the terms of the 1.5 BRO, is there a penalty if Tesla is unable to deliver on the 53kWh?

 

[ecarfan]

I suspect many 1.5 owners do not have BROs. I don't. If Tesla really still intends to offer an improved battery upgrade for the 1.5's they should have stated that a week ago.
Tesla offered for sale a 3.0 "Roadster" upgrade and then, a week later after a torrent of questions, clarified that it was for 2.0/2.5 cars only. Nothing about the 1.5 cars. If they intend to offer an improved battery for the 1.5 cars but it is delayed wouldn't they have stated that by now?
So now Tesla has created doubt in the minds of some 1.5 owners about the future of their original batteries. Stating that they will repair 1.5 batteries as needed doesn't answer the question of "Repair with what type of cells?"
I have a high level of confidence that in a decade my 2013 Model S will be able to get a battery pack replacement because there will be many hundreds of thousands of Model S and X on the roads. Until very recently I had a high level of confidence that my 1.5 Roadster was going to get an upgraded battery pack because...Tesla said so. Now I really have no idea if, a few years from now, my 1.5 battery will be repairable OR replaceable.