EVNow
Well-Known Member
They will be selling a million cars or more a year. Within one year those cars would have travelled a staggering 10 billion miles.
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Rumor: HW4 can support up to 13 cameras
- Thread starter diplomat33
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That is where the first level blending layer comes in. The camera mapping/ transform should be fairly physics/ parameter based. Similar to X vs S vs Y vs 3, though with the added complication of more cameras.
It’s a fundamental part of AV/ADAS not just for parking but for slow speed driving.
Also it’s not the industry adopting this layout. It’s the industry copying Mobileye’s layout starting with Tesla with their AP2 in 2016.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
As discussed in the other thread, this 8+4 layout is Nvidia's Drive Hyperion layout. 8 being cameras generally with Tesla's layout: trifocal windshield camera, rear camera, L/R forward facing side cameras (mounted on mirrors instead of B-pillar), L/R rear facing side cameras (Hyperion reference design appears to have them mounted on mirror also, but XPeng has it on side markers like Tesla). 4 being fisheye parking cameras: front/back, left/right (not corners).
Autonomous Car Progress
Mobileye back in 2016 planned a different layout: the windshield cameras plus 4 corner cameras. I don't believe they put it in any volume production (or we would have a lot more capable L2 vehicles available today), so not sure where you got the claim Tesla "copied" them, even ignoring that Tesla ended up using a different layout. Or do you have some other reference to Mobileye in 2016 using the same 8+4 layout being discussed?
Mobileye, Delphi to build fully autonomous vehicle system by 2019
Of all the companies out there working on their own versions of self driving car systems, IMO it is nVidia that will end up being the closest competitor to Tesla.
Not only has nVidia been in the graphics processing business for a long time, they've also been throwing a big R&D budget at AI/NN development for quite some time, also. The fact that their GPU's happen to be pretty darn good for AI/NN work doesn't hurt, either.
Personally, I'm hoping that the rumor is true about more cameras for HW 4. As so many people have already said, we really need to have two more cameras mounted as far forward as possible (looking left and right), as well as on the rear bumper for cross traffic.
As anxious as I am to take delivery of our CT, the prospect of it coming with the next generation of hardware and/or cameras helps take the sting out of the wait a bit.
EVNow
Well-Known Member
NVidia has been talking about end-to-end NN training for years without actually doing it - it seems.
Anyway, they are using the same stack as Waymo - lidar & hd map based, right ? Are they ahead of Waymo - I don't see any evidence of that.
Yup, at this point my opinion is strictly speculation. It'll be interesting to see how it pans out.
But with nVidia's huge R&D budget, the fact that they designed a lot of the actual hardware, as well as their past AI/NN research, I think they're in a pretty good position to give the competition a run for their money.
But again... I'm a married man, and quite used to be being wrong about so, so many things.
EVNow
Well-Known Member
nVidia is ofcourse the h/w / chip specialist. Their idea is to make money selling hardware to auto companies for a fat profit. They do have good budget - but nowhere near the money likes of Waymo / MobilEye / Cruise or even Tesla spend on FSD.
At this point - the competition for ADAS / L2+ hardware for auto majors is between Intel/MobilEye and nVidia. Will definitely be interesting on how it goes. I don't think either of them are actually targeting robotaxi as the end game.
nVidia is one of the stocks I sold off too early (< 2008), unfortunatley.
What in the world are you talking about? "Tesla's layout:"??
Mobileye invented the trifocal camera and the 8 camera setup back in 2014 and then in 2018 added 4 corner parking cameras.
Its not a surprise that every single automaker Mobileye worked with has now copied that exact same setup. Tesla, Xpeng, Nio, Lucid, etc.
Literally the entire camera setup and angles including the trifocal camera with 3 different FOV was mobileye's invention. Mobileye already had dozens of automakers testing out the setup and chip in 2014. One of them being Volvo.
Autonomous drive technology – trifocal camera
Another being Tesla. Notice how its the same mobileye rig.
Tesla Model S test vehicle with multiple cameras spotted near San Francisco
Redditor silasoverturf spotted an interesting Tesla test vehicle at the Corte Madera store. The vehicle seems to be equipped with at least 6...
electrek.co
Mobileye's patent
US20150103159A1 - Forward-facing multi-imaging system for navigating a vehicle - Google Patents
Systems and methods use cameras to provide autonomous navigation features. In one implementation, a driver-assist system is provided for a vehicle. The system may include one or more image capture devices configured to acquire images of an area forward of the vehicle. The system may also include...
patents.google.com
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Is 8, or 8 + 4, or 8 + 4 + interior cameras unique or a Tesla discovery? Nope. However, I don't see how Tesla could be copying when they were originally the lead platform...
The Tesla / Mobileye story
Unless the claim is that the lead vehicle to use 8 cameras that the MobilEye CEO referred to at the 2015 Citi conference was not Tesla? Note also, this was not EyeQ4 chips..
2019 CES with different CEO, two years after AP2...
Even if there was some other lead vehicle, one would need to claim that the original AP2 system was not a joint development planned to have both MobilEye and Tesla processing hardware.
Q4 2016 earnings call via SeekingAlpha:
Were one to grant all that, one also needs to make the claim that using cameras with three different zoom levels is novel, as is the number of cameras needed to provide 360 degree coverage to near tire/ ground interface. (And no, getting a patent does not prove that)
The Tesla / Mobileye story
Unless the claim is that the lead vehicle to use 8 cameras that the MobilEye CEO referred to at the 2015 Citi conference was not Tesla? Note also, this was not EyeQ4 chips..
2019 CES with different CEO, two years after AP2...
Even if there was some other lead vehicle, one would need to claim that the original AP2 system was not a joint development planned to have both MobilEye and Tesla processing hardware.
Q4 2016 earnings call via SeekingAlpha:
Were one to grant all that, one also needs to make the claim that using cameras with three different zoom levels is novel, as is the number of cameras needed to provide 360 degree coverage to near tire/ ground interface. (And no, getting a patent does not prove that)
How it started:
Industry First
Volvo Has a “Production-Viable” Autonomous Car, Will Put It on the Road by 2017
How it went (one can guess due to CES slide).
Volvo is reportedly scaling back its ambitious self-driving car experiment
How it's going:
Volvo will use Waymo’s self-driving technology to power a fleet of electric robotaxis
Industry First
How it developed:
Volvo Has a “Production-Viable” Autonomous Car, Will Put It on the Road by 2017
But hey, trifocal
How it went (one can guess due to CES slide).
Volvo is reportedly scaling back its ambitious self-driving car experiment
How it's going:
Volvo will use Waymo’s self-driving technology to power a fleet of electric robotaxis
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
That uses a trifocal camera, but has no other cameras other than 4 parking cameras (which is not unique to Volvo, that layout had been used for a long time for 360 parking view).
It seems no company put the 8 camera layout into use prior to Tesla.
I have no doubt the windshield camera was either Mobileye or adopted from Mobileye, we all know the history of that with AP1 vs AP2. I'm talking about the 8 camera layout here though.Another being Tesla. Notice how its the same mobileye rig.
Tesla Model S test vehicle with multiple cameras spotted near San Francisco
Redditor silasoverturf spotted an interesting Tesla test vehicle at the Corte Madera store. The vehicle seems to be equipped with at least 6...
When that is the document above from? It seems from your source name it's a 2016 roadmap. Tesla was already testing the side cameras (actually 3 locations, B-pillar, side marker, and corners; 4 locations if you include the Model S vehicle which tested in-cabin angled cameras) in mid-2015. It could be possible they got the idea from Mobileye (if your document was from before 2015), but I think it's specious to say Tesla copied Mobileye, as it seems obvious Tesla tested various locations for side cameras before ending up with the current locations, not to mention Tesla seems to be first to put it into an actual vehicle (production or otherwise, your document above seems to say Mobileye won't have a car with it until 2017).
https://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2015/07/tesla-model-x-caught-testing-new-sensors-on-video.html
Patent does mention the trifocal as an example, but does not cover the other 5 cameras.
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stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the timeline. Combined with the spy shots of Tesla already testing various side camera layouts in mid-2015 (when Mobileye first talked about working with an OEM with 8 cameras), it makes it pretty clear Mobileye was working with Tesla on this in 2015, so essentially both of them were working on this layout at the same time. So it could very well be Mobileye "copying" Tesla if we want to talk about copying. That is unless there is some other prototype or OEM we missed that came out with a car with the same layout in the same timeframe, but all the hints given seem to match with Tesla.
Like you, I don't think the patents are relevant, as even in the linked patent, the trifocal camera had different versions and it was only shown as examples (patent also mentioned stereo cameras), it wasn't what the patent covered. It also doesn't cover the side cameras. As you say, such layouts may not be novel enough to be patentable, plus there is a lot of prior art, including other camera systems (like Eyesight).
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EVNow
Well-Known Member
I think more than patents - I don't think it requires a great deal of unique intellect to figure out the camera locations. I think it is quite obvious that you need cameras in multiple locations to be able to figure out where all the vehicles are on the road to try autonomous driving.
After all a lot of people here on TMC have been commenting on whether Tesla's cameras are enough for FSD or not.
One of those things where no patent should be granted for obvious things - but the patent office never does a good job of it.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
@Bladerskb
You said the document is from 2014, but a reverse google search shows it's a slide from CES 2016 (just as the file name suggests: "Mobileye%2BCamera%2BRoadmap%2B2016.png").
Mobileye Requirements for Future ADAS Cameras
Do you have evidence that it's from 2014? As a sanity check, they didn't unveil the EyeQ4 until March 2015, so I doubt they would have a slide from 2014 that mentions EyeQ4.
Moving Closer to Automated Driving, Mobileye Unveils EyeQ4® System-on-Chip with its First Design Win for 2018
If you are going to claim Tesla copied their 8 camera layout from Mobileye, you would need stronger evidence than that, given Tesla was already testing that layout since at least mid-2015, which to be clear was not something "Tesla says", it was from a spy video of an actual prototype vehicle from July 2015 (just the screen shot already shows the B-pillar, side marker, front corner cameras, you can look at video for closer look):
https://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2015/07/tesla-model-x-caught-testing-new-sensors-on-video.html
All the stuff mentioned in the previous post also was not something "Tesla says", but rather it was Mobileye themselves that said they were working with an OEM with 8 cameras (which no OEM matched except Tesla).
Supplier hints at next generation Autopilot hardware for Tesla within a year
You said the document is from 2014, but a reverse google search shows it's a slide from CES 2016 (just as the file name suggests: "Mobileye%2BCamera%2BRoadmap%2B2016.png").
Mobileye Requirements for Future ADAS Cameras
Do you have evidence that it's from 2014? As a sanity check, they didn't unveil the EyeQ4 until March 2015, so I doubt they would have a slide from 2014 that mentions EyeQ4.
Moving Closer to Automated Driving, Mobileye Unveils EyeQ4® System-on-Chip with its First Design Win for 2018
If you are going to claim Tesla copied their 8 camera layout from Mobileye, you would need stronger evidence than that, given Tesla was already testing that layout since at least mid-2015, which to be clear was not something "Tesla says", it was from a spy video of an actual prototype vehicle from July 2015 (just the screen shot already shows the B-pillar, side marker, front corner cameras, you can look at video for closer look):
https://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2015/07/tesla-model-x-caught-testing-new-sensors-on-video.html
All the stuff mentioned in the previous post also was not something "Tesla says", but rather it was Mobileye themselves that said they were working with an OEM with 8 cameras (which no OEM matched except Tesla).
Supplier hints at next generation Autopilot hardware for Tesla within a year
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tmoz
S85D, Y LR, ex Prius PiP
27,360 in 19 days, 1,201 minutes too many, or about 20 hours. Sorry, just had to fact check (-; So that special event will be 20 hours after 5 days, so no need to panic if nothing happens exactly 5 days after 2 weeks.Yes, but...
- 13 to the power of 4 is 28561
- 28561 is the number of minutes in 19 days
- 19 days is just five days more than...TWO WEEKS
Terminator857
Active Member
Quote:
HW4 made an official appearance in the production code with FSDBeta 10.11 While rumors were it would be very similar to hw3 just more/faster RAM, in fact the differences appear to more than that. Exact details remain somewhat nebulous, but official launch is likely pretty soon.
HW4 made an official appearance in the production code with FSDBeta 10.11 While rumors were it would be very similar to hw3 just more/faster RAM, in fact the differences appear to more than that. Exact details remain somewhat nebulous, but official launch is likely pretty soon.
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
It's not "rumors" there'll be a new sensor suite- Elon explicitly mentioned updated cameras at a minimum....originally suggested they (and HW4) would appear later in 2022 on the cybertruck but given that's pushed to at least 2023 it'll likely show up elsewhere sooner... (S/X probably unless they've got TONS of supply up front)
The big question is if it's just better cameras- which might be relatively easy to retrofit on existing fleet--- or more of em in different spots which would be considerably harder.
The big question is if it's just better cameras- which might be relatively easy to retrofit on existing fleet--- or more of em in different spots which would be considerably harder.
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