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Russia/Ukraine conflict
- Thread starter amolina
- Start date
BitJam
Active Member
Is that where you get your "undistilled Kremlin propaganda" from? Good to know. The film is available on YouTube:
As a counterpoint I recommend this lecture by historian Marci Shore which was part of Timothy Snyder's lecture series on the making of modern Ukraine:
Neither side has a total monopoly on the truth. But Putin and Russia have really bad track records, especially regarding his special military operation in Ukraine.
Please tell me, do you honestly believe that the two drone strikes on the Kremlin prior to the Victory Day celebration were attempts to assassinate Putin (as he claims)? Perun said the only way these could have been assassination attempts was if it was known Putin has a habit of sleeping up there and embracing any drones flying nearby.
No doubt there are many people (most of them in Russia) who believe Putin and who think everything coming out of the West is a pack of lies. I'd like to have an intelligent discussion about the veracity of the claims by both sides but if you want to convince anyone here, you will have to do much better than call us names and cite Russian propaganda.
Russia lied about the Kremlin drone strikes. Russia lied by calling the invasion of Ukraine a special military operation and outlawing the use of the word "war" to describe it. Russia lied that it was not going to invade Ukraine while it was invading Ukraine. Can you refute any of this? Can you refute the evidence of wide scale rape, torture, and kidnapping by Russians in Ukraine? Do you deny that Russia is targeting civilian infrastructure in Ukraine? Do you deny this is a warm crime?
If you have anything that is even slightly convincing, I'd love to hear it. I have no interest in pure unadulterated BS from either side. I also have little interest in what-about-ism. Yes, the US and the West have done terrible things in the past. By a happy coincidence their national interests have aligned with the side of morality and justice this time.
Yep, in a fascist state like Russia, all they have is a world of lies.
unfortunately, the last few years have shown it is the USA that is the liar.
no one can convince anyone of ether side of anything. Most major topics have the liar, and the one telling, more of the truth. Both sides clearly see it is the other, and nothing will convince ether side they are wrong.
And, no. But, it was very interesting.
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I clearly see the USA is the liar, the evil empire we are told Russia is.
In just the last 60 years the US has gotten involved in wars in Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan that were all pretty much mistakes. Initially Afghanistan was a noble effort if the US had stuck to the original goal which was to capture bin Laden and the al Qaeda leadership, then leave. They almost had them, but there weren't enough troops in country to do the job because the Bush administration was illegally building up for Iraq.
But there is a big difference between these wars by the US and Russia's war in Ukraine. Russia claims that Ukraine is not a legitimate country and it's really a part of Russia. This is a war of permanent conquest on the part of Russia.
The US never claimed Vietnam was going to become the 51st state or any other claims of imperial conquest. The US would have been very happy to pop in, get rid of the old regime, put in someone the US can work with and leave. The US model of the world is countries are free to go their own way as long as their interests don't conflict too much with US interests.
It's not the greatest attitude in the world, but it is a step in the right direction from the world order before the US became the dominant player. Before the US dominated world order, the European powers with Britain at the front of the pack, competed to take and control the most territory in the world. On the eve of WW II the UK controlled 1/3 of the world's land mass. Most of the world outside of Europe and the Americas was under the control of one European power or the other.
Russia's war of conquest in Ukraine is a throw back to the late 19th century when the world was divided up in the Great Game where European imperial powers competed with one another for control of the rest of the world.
Personally I have come to most of my conclusions about the war through absorbing information from a number of non-American sources. The US news media has done a terrible job covering this war.
I know a lot about history, especially military history. I also understand quite a bit about how militaries work. The quality of the information about the Ukrainian side squares very closely with my existing knowledge. The quality of what the Russians have to say is utter BS that has no relationship to anything even physically possible in many cases.
I also check information for internal consistency. Does the narrative change day to day to fit whatever message the teller is trying to convey? If so they are almost certainly lying. If the teller is spouting "facts" that can't be true because they are physically impossible or conflict with hard evidence like photographic proof, then the teller is lying.
I consider all information. If it's coming from a source that has low credibility to begin with, I'm going to be very skeptical vs a source that has a track record of being accurate.
OK, please provide some instances where US lies have materially contributed to making the case that Russia has violated international norms by invading their neighbor in a war of conquest to conquer them and make them part of the Russian Empire again? How have US lies created the factual evidence, corroborated by many non-American sources about the core issues with this war?
I have pretty much taken everything the US has said about this war out of the equation and I still see a brutal war on conquest on Russia's part and Ukraine just trying to defend its territorial integrity and its existence.
The world is not black and white. There is a reality where the US has a poor track record in some areas and the US has slanted things to support its narrative in certain situations and at the same time Russia has done a horrible thing invading its neighbor and has committed terrible atrocities while doing it.
Just because the US has done wrong in the past doesn't make Russia right. In this instance I clearly see Russia is in the wrong, and despite a checkered past record, the US is on the right side in this conflict.
I have never bought into "evil" narratives. They are two dimensional. What Russia has done is wrong on many levels and in many ways. Putin is at the center of all of this and what he has done is very, very wrong.
In the US some police officers have clearly done wrong, shooting people who are doing completely lawful things, harassing people for no reason other than the color of their skin, etc. But when the police catch a mass murderer who clearly did the crime, that doesn't make the mass murderer innocent. Nor does the fact that some police have done some terrible things make all police evil.
The US has told some lies and done some bad things, but it doesn't make everything the US does bad. And it doesn't automatically make the opponents of the US right either.
BitJam
Active Member
If you had said almost all nations lie and almost all nation work in their own national interest then I would have agreed with you. If your world view has no shades of gray and you believe that the US and its allies are the only liars and form the only evil empire then there may not be much more to discuss.
Have you read any Solzhenitsyn? The humanity he displays when confronted with the abject horror and inhumanity of the Soviet Gulag system is amazing.
The line separating good and evil passes not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties either -- but right through every human heart -- and through all human hearts.
Again, if you have any evidence that the US is lying about the war in Ukraine or that Russia is telling the truth, please share it. I believe that to a great extent we have a shared external physical reality. Engineering and science work regardless of your politics or your belief system. Gandhi told his followers to cling to the truth. We are all imperfect beings living in an imperfect world. Yet we can strive to learn the truth. If you help me get closer to the truth of what's going on in Ukraine, I would be very grateful.
One of the greatest differences in this conflict is the open source information space. Sadly for Russia it often contradicts what they like to parrot. Anyway, here is a great Podcast with ChrisO_wiki who is anonymous.
Just use ignore. Putin’s merry band of useful idiots here thrive on attention.
Opinion | Putin Is Fighting, and Losing, His Last War
When Russians talk about nuclear war, the safest response is to ensure their very conventional defeat.
Tim Snyder is a prof at Yale that writes on Despots
Yes, yes it did
. Ok but we have had many trolls show up and give up. I think it will work but it would be helpful if the normal posters would ignore. This is not a person that disagrees with you it is a bot or malicious troll account. Frankly it surprises me that some engage with accounts like this.
Others tried the same non-reality based trolling on the COVID19 thread and they all gave up as people that actually knew what they were talking about continued posting facts and reality based opinions. There were disagreements but as long as people just corrected the outrageous lies and mostly ignored the trolls it was actually a very thorough education on public health, virology and treatment. We have done a fair job here. No need to let trolls drive people away. Putin will continue to screw up just as Hitler did, and in the end democracy will win. It will be a great day for the world when Putin is either judged by the Russian people or handed over to the ICC to be judged for his crimes against humanity.Yes, yes it did
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jabloomf1230
Minister of Silly Walks
The Mods might want to look at your posting history.
SwedishAdvocate
Active Member
Food giant Unilever is still active in Russia and NL Times states and quotes Dutch Follow The Money that the company doubled its profits in Russia last year. It also increased its marketing budget in Russia despite saying that it would stop advertising in the country.
Click on the red links to get to the sources.
Click on the red links to get to the sources.
Sometimes, maybe even often this is true. If someone expresses an interest in actually having a discussion, I'll give them a chance. I won't continue if there isn't a real effort to have a real discussion though.
Opinion | Putin Is Fighting, and Losing, His Last War
When Russians talk about nuclear war, the safest response is to ensure their very conventional defeat.www.nytimes.com
Tim Snyder is a prof at Yale that writes on Despots
Professor Snyder is also one of the top experts on Eastern European history in the US.
My partner came across this Twitter account today. This guy makes the food for a lot of the Ukrainian troops. He asserts the troops in Bakhmut are doing better because they have good food.
https://twitter.com/chefzhenya
I’m pretty sure you’re wasting your valuable time feeding a troll who’d best be ignored.
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