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Russia/Ukraine conflict

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The history of the European interactions with the indigenous peoples of North America cannot be simply explained as a genocide. Various tribes allied with specific European powers that were involved in NA colonial conflicts. If a tribe aligned with the losing European power this led to serious consequences, as is the case in most conflicts. In any case, these historical sidebars regarding NA genocide and colonialism have only marginal relevence to the present conflict which is the subject of this thread.
 
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Germans and Blinken taking the pathway Putin favors (I was always worried that US would lose focus and with Biden under severe re-election pressure he needs peace for a talking point):

 
Germans and Blinken taking the pathway Putin favors (I was always worried that US would lose focus and with Biden under severe re-election pressure he needs peace for a talking point):

Not a great time to negotiate. Firstly, weakens their position by even talking about it if there isn't a settlement. Secondly, I don't see Zelensky going for it. Thirdly, Putin is hoping Trump comes in soon. What a mess.
 
Germans and Blinken taking the pathway Putin favors (I was always worried that US would lose focus and with Biden under severe re-election pressure he needs peace for a talking point):


Paywalled.

Question: What does a "German tabloid" know about this anyway?... Let me guess... An "anonymous source"...

Reminds me of the German so called "journalist" that the Russian Dictator bought and paid for...

 
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You are all confused.

Nobody has the right to harm others - US or Putin or Hamas or Israel.

But that is not what we are talking about. For a historian - the question is - why did Russia invade Ukraine. One reason given (mostly in US media) is that Putin is an expansionist and wants to recreate USSR. But the alternative view is Putin just wanted to prevent expansion of NATO. Full Stop. Its not about ethics of war - all aggressive wars are unethical ! Nobody is arguing they are - not him, nor I.

Oh what gives US the right to murder a million people in Iraq and call them "collateral damage"
There is no "right", but the million person estimate for Iraq is a high estimate of related deaths (including for example indirect deaths due to impact on crops and water) over 16 years of conflict (much of which US was not directly involved in). It is not the US military "murdering" those people.

Back when I posted it last year, when someone brought up a similar point about Iraq, the total civilian deaths (much less deaths that can directly be attributed to the US military) during the same periods in the war was drastically less. This is because the US actually had a policy to avoid impacting civilians where possible, while Russia didn't (in fact they deliberately attacked civilian areas).
Russia/Ukraine conflict
Russia/Ukraine conflict
or call genocidal invaders "pilgrims" ?
While the initial groups and various European nations that colonized the "New World" perhaps committed genocide in some cases, the "pilgrims" refer to a much smaller group that came in hopes of religious freedom (most of which also died due to disease). The actual circumstances in the other cases were also more complex as others pointed out (different Native American tribes sided with colonists from different countries in hopes of eliminating competing tribes). Plus many people died on both sides due to diseases that they had no deliberate intent to spread.
Pilgrims (Plymouth Colony) - Wikipedia
 
Finland Steps Up Border Closings in Dispute With Russia

Finland is closing all but one of its land border crossings with Russia, escalating a standoff between the two countries over an influx of migrants that Finnish officials blame on Moscow.

Starting on Friday, only the Raja-Jooseppi crossing in northern Lapland will stay open to travelers, while all seven other land crossings will be closed. Last week, Finland closed four of the entry points.

“Russia has sought for years to cause discord, to shake unity in Europe and to weaken the Western alliance and international rules-based order,” the Finnish prime minister, Petteri Orpo, said in a televised address to Parliament on Thursday. “Our national response must be clear and strong.”
 
That doesn't make sense.

Why not say the same thing about countries near US, near China or India ?

India has shown no interest in getting into conflict with any neighboring country other than Pakistan. India's nuclear arsenal is pointed at Pakistan only. Ari Lanka has never expressed fear of an Indian invasion and India has never built the military capability to pull off such an operation.

Around China, the Philippines, Taiwan, Japan, and South Korea have all tied their fortunes to the US and tucked under the US nuclear umbrella. There are rumors that Japan have built the parts to a number of nuclear weapons and they keep them disassembled, but capable of being made ready in a few weeks if things with China get too heated.

The US has had a communist country on its doorstep for 65 years, it tried to invade that country once, but that was over 60 years ago. The US has had sanctions on Cuba, but Cuba has not had to worry about a US invasion for a long time. The rest of the New World complies with the US post-WW II doctrine and nobody attacks anyone else which leaves the New World at peace. The only exception was the Argentinean invasion of the Falklands in the 1980s and the US stood by and let the UK deal with getting their territory back.

Did you watch ? I guess not.

His contention is that Putin is afraid of NATO and eastward expansion of NATO precipitated the war. In other words if NATO didn’t try to expand eastward (as promised) there would be no war.

Small countries always get crushed and suffer terribly when big powers play their chess games. Ukraine is no different. Afghanistan in the 80s or Vietnam in the 60s.

Underlying this assumption is that NATO expansion was the idea of the US or other western European allies. It wasn't. When former Warsaw Pact countries came to NATO and asked to join, they were initially rebuffed. Then Poland laid down an ultimatum that either they join NATO or they would start their own nuclear program. Rather than have Poland as an independent nuclear power, NATO expanded to include Poland and a number of other Eastern European countries.

This is where people like Mearshimer don't give agency to other countries and only sees world politics through the lens of great powers playing power games with each other. That's the root of the fatal flaw in this arguments.

The countries of Eastern Europe experienced the hell of the Soviet Union invading them within living memory. They do not want to experience anything like that again. Being part of an alliance that is much larger than they are protects them.

In the post WW II order, the US has enforced a new paradigm that wars of conquest are out. The US has participated in wars that looked a bit like wars of conquest, but the US's stated goal was never to add that country to the US empire. The goal was always to put in someone the US could work with and get out. That has proven to be a fool's errand in a lot of cases. The South Vietnamese government fell apart shortly after the US pulled out of Vietnam, the Iraqi government is still there, but it pretty feckless, and the government the US left in Afghanistan didn't even last long enough for the US to finish getting out.

But if you listen to the US talk about these wars at the time, there was never talk of making Vietnam or Iraq the 51st state. At the start of the 2022 invasion Putin was talking about absorbing Ukraine back into Russia. He still talks sometimes about Ukraine being a part of Russia and that Ukraine really doesn't exist.

Russia is the only country in the world today who is still playing the 19th century Great Game that was played between European powers before WW I and was completely wiped out when the US established a new paradigm after WW II. The US based order post WW II is that the borders of the world are set along late 1940s lines unless a country voluntarily breaks up. Countries that don't abide by those rules get thumped by the rest of the world.

The US was weak in thumping Russia for taking part of Moldova which they dressed up as a "peace keeping" operation. Russia is not trying to make any part of Syria their own, but they did get a naval port from Syria as part of their deal to help the current government. The US did thump the USSR when they tried to take Afghanistan in the 1980s. The US was very poor in responding to the 2008 invasion of Georgia and poor in responding to the 2014 invasion of Ukraine. Those two weaknesses made Putin think he might get away with taking all of Ukraine.

Because real politick is always different from ethical matters. But ethics is always used as a cover for big power wars.

Otherwise - let us first start talking about Native American genocide, colonization, Iraq war etc.

Talking about anything that happened pre-WWII is talking about an era when the US was not setting the standards for international behavior. It was a collection of European power then with the British Empire and to some extent France setting the standard in the period between WW I and WW II. During the time of the North American genocide the Europeans and descendants of Europeans thought it was just fine to do whatever they wanted with non-white people. From our modern perspective, it was wrong, and I agree it was wrong. But it is history now and it is not the way things are done in the world now.

I also think all optional wars are wrong. That includes the US invasion of Iraq. The goal was to get rid of the dictator and replace him with a democracy, which I thought was wrong in 2003 and I still think was wrong now. One of the legacies of that invasion is it hurt US credibility on the world stage when they condemn wars of conquest like Russia is trying to do now.

But the core goals of the two wars are different. Russia is conducting a war of conquest and the US was attempting regime change. Like I said, I don't think regime change wars are right either, but the goals are different.

You are all confused.

Nobody has the right to harm others - US or Putin or Hamas or Israel.

But that is not what we are talking about. For a historian - the question is - why did Russia invade Ukraine. One reason given (mostly in US media) is that Putin is an expansionist and wants to recreate USSR. But the alternative view is Putin just wanted to prevent expansion of NATO. Full Stop. Its not about ethics of war - all aggressive wars are unethical ! Nobody is arguing they are - not him, nor I.

Oh what gives US the right to murder a million people in Iraq and call them "collateral damage" or call genocidal invaders "pilgrims" ?

I don't consume US media about the war in Ukraine. Most of my sources are European with quite a few coming out of Eastern Europe. Eastern Europe knows the Russian mind set, they were subject to it for over 40 years before they broke free when the USSR started unraveling. One of the few US sources I trust is Timothy Snyder who is one of the top historians on Eastern Europe in the US. His views on the whys of this war are congruent with the Eastern European sources.

I get push back whenever I say this because it does look ridiculous when you look at a map, but sources like Timothy Snyder all agree, fundamentally Moscow feels insecure. Before Moscova began to grow in strength and expand their territory they lived in a perpetually dangerous environment where their kingdom might be overrun by the Mongol hoard at any time. It drove them to conquer all of Northern Asia as well as push into Eastern Europe. Moscow was paranoid then about being invaded and they are paranoid now.

The Russian on the street is unaware of this, but on a sub-conscious level it permeates the culture of the ethnic Russians. As an added benefit milking this vast empire dry is the only way the ethnic Russians can live like a developed country. Moscow is a modern capital and St Petersburg is kept nice too, but at the expense of the rest of the country which exists as little more than third world slums.

Russia's government both want the economic benefits of adding to the empire, plus they are also paranoid about 1941 happening again in the same way that someone who was abused as a child might remain hyper reactive as an adult.
 
Germans and Blinken taking the pathway Putin favors (I was always worried that US would lose focus and with Biden under severe re-election pressure he needs peace for a talking point):

I hope this is just @X Fan 's attempt at being funny or something, because this makes as much sense as "taking the pathway" a rapist favors.
 
You are all confused.

Nobody has the right to harm others - US or Putin or Hamas or Israel.

But that is not what we are talking about. For a historian - the question is - why did Russia invade Ukraine. One reason given (mostly in US media) is that Putin is an expansionist and wants to recreate USSR. But the alternative view is Putin just wanted to prevent expansion of NATO. Full Stop. Its not about ethics of war - all aggressive wars are unethical ! Nobody is arguing they are - not him, nor I.

Oh what gives US the right to murder a million people in Iraq and call them "collateral damage" or call genocidal invaders "pilgrims" ?
It'll probably come off as confrontational, but I mean this to be an honest question: how would "Putin just want(ing) to prevent expansion of NATO" be any different from "the US (or Europe) just wanting to prevent expansion of Russia". It seems there's a implied moral justification to "just wanted to prevent expansion of NATO" that I'm finding hard to grasp.
 
It'll probably come off as confrontational, but I mean this to be an honest question: how would "Putin just want(ing) to prevent expansion of NATO" be any different from "the US (or Europe) just wanting to prevent expansion of Russia". It seems there's a implied moral justification to "just wanted to prevent expansion of NATO" that I'm finding hard to grasp.
Look at what they are actually doing: Russia is obliterating Ukraine, the same way it leveled Grozny* and many other places it 'expanded' to . Is NATO obliterating Finland, Poland, Montenegro . . . ?
There is definitely a big difference between the expansion of NATO and the 'expansion' of Putin's empire.

* In 2003, the United Nations designated Grozny as the most destroyed city on Earth (Wikipedia)
 
Look at what they are actually doing: Russia is obliterating Ukraine, the same way it leveled Grozny* and many other places it 'expanded' to . Is NATO obliterating Finland, Poland, Montenegro . . . ?
There is definitely a big difference between the expansion of NATO and the 'expansion' of Putin's empire.

* In 2003, the United Nations designated Grozny as the most destroyed city on Earth (Wikipedia)
No argument from me there!
 
You are all confused.

Nobody has the right to harm others - US or Putin or Hamas or Israel.

But that is not what we are talking about. For a historian - the question is - why did Russia invade Ukraine. One reason given (mostly in US media) is that Putin is an expansionist and wants to recreate USSR. But the alternative view is Putin just wanted to prevent expansion of NATO. Full Stop. Its not about ethics of war - all aggressive wars are unethical ! Nobody is arguing they are - not him, nor I.

Oh what gives US the right to murder a million people in Iraq and call them "collateral damage" or call genocidal invaders "pilgrims" ?

The US did not murder a million civilians in Iraq. That is patently. An estimated 250,00 Iraqi civilians died at the hands of fellow Muslims in the sectarian violence that followed the war. If you want to blame the US invasion for causing the power vacuum that led to sectarian violence, that is fair. But those people did not die at the hands of the US military.
Iraqis do not blame the US for those deaths and sectarian violence still happens in Iraq.
 
You are all confused.

Nobody has the right to harm others - US or Putin or Hamas or Israel.

But that is not what we are talking about. For a historian - the question is - why did Russia invade Ukraine. One reason given (mostly in US media) is that Putin is an expansionist and wants to recreate USSR. But the alternative view is Putin just wanted to prevent expansion of NATO. Full Stop. Its not about ethics of war - all aggressive wars are unethical ! Nobody is arguing they are - not him, nor I.

Oh what gives US the right to murder a million people in Iraq and call them "collateral damage" or call genocidal invaders "pilgrims" ?

If Putin invaded Ukraine to prevent the expansion of NATO, he is a moron cause the war has caused the opposite effect. All he had to do to keep Ukraine out of NATO was lean on Germany, France and Italy.
 
It'll probably come off as confrontational, but I mean this to be an honest question: how would "Putin just want(ing) to prevent expansion of NATO" be any different from "the US (or Europe) just wanting to prevent expansion of Russia". It seems there's a implied moral justification to "just wanted to prevent expansion of NATO" that I'm finding hard to grasp.

That is just a masquerade. They want to conquer the whole world, if they are allowed to do it, and they will partner with other authoritairan psychopath leaders with their brainwashed citizens. They don't care about you.

If in doubt, watch a lecture on Russian war strategy by Finnish intelligence officer, then you know.

Furthermore:
 
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The Blinken equation:

y=x+z-a-b-c-d

y=Decision to continue war if positive
x=original value of land
z=original value of infrastructure
a=cost of clearing land mines
b=cost of rebuilding infrastructure
c=time to achieve a+b
d=value of lives lost in future battles / clearing mines

Putin is increasing b+c by flooding coal mines thus increasing likelihood of winning war. He probably does not need more coal. China won't. Also this land is primarily needed as an air gap between him and NATO.
 
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The Blinken equation:

y=x+z-a-b-c-d

y=Decision to continue war if positive
x=original value of land
z=original value of infrastructure
a=cost of clearing land mines
b=cost of rebuilding infrastructure
c=time to achieve a+b
d=value of lives lost in future battles / clearing mines

Putin is increasing b+c by flooding coal mines thus increasing likelihood of winning war. He probably does not need more coal. China won't. Also this land is primarily needed as an air gap between him and NATO.

So it might also be locals trying to devalue the land?
 
It's my absolute opinion that the Democratic West must do a lot more to stop this absolute madness. I am no military expert, but a total war economy ramp of artillery shell production and the kind of drones that UKR is asking for seem to be two obvious things that needs to happen ASAP.

And if the F-16s that has been donated only have a 60 km range radar, then that is also obviously not going to be enough to stop the Russian Dictator's Air Force from continuing to launch massive glide bombs.


Russia launches record number of kamikaze drones at Ukraine overnight Sat

25.11.2023 08:40

This night, the Russian invaders released a record number of Shahed-131/136 one-way attack drones at Ukraine.

That’s according to the Ukrainian Air Force, Ukrinform reports.

Kyiv was the main targets of the enemy attack. [...



The UKR Armed Forces allegedly shot down 71 out of the 75 out of the Russian Dictator's incoming targets. 40 of those targets were allegedly shot down over Kyiv.

 
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