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Russia/Ukraine conflict

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I don't often disagree but I will on the statement regarding Germany being pushed into WWII. It's one school of history that is increasingly disputed by more thorough research that showed Germans reparations were never actually particularly painful and were rarely paid. They were a trope for right wing nationalists that never accepted defeat in the first place. Payments themselves did not cause economic injury, the German economy was growing and with the exception of impacts due to the Great Depression it was decent growth and very little money was actually paid. Immediately after the fall of the German state the Prussian military leaders were organizing and conspiring to reorganize and prepare for the next war. This included a series of agreements with the USSR on aircraft development, pilot training, tank training, tank development, etc. Keeping armies in Lithuania and Latvia, sending new young officers the units to get combat experience. Germany stalled on payments for years, were forced into them by France occupying the Ruhr, and even then international banks worked to help germans with an unheard of 60 year payment process whereby the payments were a few percent of GDP. The German military, from the very end of WWI, actively worked to subvert the democratically elected government whom they blamed for the loss. Leaders moved into and out of nationalistic parties and into and out of the military. One concern the military did have was the rise of any rival organization and thus the Nazi leadership role in gutting their own armed wing to curry favor with the military.

More controversial is the role of the early armistice on the development of the next war. Germany did not suffer in WWI to the extent of France or Netherlands or Belgium. Physical infrastructure was virtually untouched except from digging up the water systems to melt lead pipes for bullets. Some historians consider that to have been the ultimate cause of WWI. If Germany had been truly occupied, crushed, as was done in WWII then you would likely never have seen the rise of the Nazi party (and other right wing parties) which was always implicitly supported by the German military, a military that railed against the democratically elected government. If the military leaders had been jailed for the war crimes they committed in WWI would you have had a WWII?

In any case, the German army leadership felt it had not been defeated at the end of the war but rather, not supported by the democratically elected government. They were planning the next war just as they planned the first (German preparations for WWI are a fascinating subject and despite the deliberate destruction of original source material it is still a good detective story). Even to the extent of cooperating with their enemy (communist govts) to develop technology and strategy, another fascinating read. German right wing (army thrown in there) were preparing for the next war as soon as the ink was dry. The payments were just a trope.

Beware any such messaging from Putin. This conflict is 100% on Putin. Ukraine was invaded. There are no Fascist (except for Russian ones). This was never about a few offshore oil platforms. There are no nuke weapons development programs (ok maybe they are? Good on Ukraine if so). Russia had no casus belli so they, as with most dictatorships have to invent one. Putin tried to invent several.

Lots of lessons here for the Ukraine conflict. Have the Ukrainians kill Russians (not NATO, no no fly zone- don't provide material to right wing russians to make excuses for their own failures). Don't make peace quickly. Take back Crimea. Don't let reparations for property damage be a long simmering boil to be used by Putin to further radicalize. Just take all the assets of Russia held overseas (Oligarchs too). Hold military leadership fully accountable. War crimes are being committed, the generals and other officers need to be held accountable. At this point, it would be hard to find a field commander whose forces had not committed war crimes. Every war may have civilian casualties. Firing rockets and artillery into residential apartments from 10 miles away is designed to cause terror, not harm the enemy. The Russian army leadership must be held accountable.

If the Ukrainians are fully committed let this bleed Russia dry. The longer it continues, the greater the local resistance, the refugee camps become your recruitment ground, weapons are provided the border is over 1000 miles long in terrain familiar to and useful for insurgency. Bleed them until Russia asks for help.
So about the Nazis. I learned yesterday that there is indeed a militia neo nazi force with a political party inside of Ukraine who joined the Ukrainian army to fight off the Russians due to their annexation of Crimea. This party gained like 2% of the vote and is a foot note in Ukrainian population, however this is what Putin used for his nazi story as many Russians are killed in the contested Donbas area while the president of Ukraine suppressed Russian culture there.

Very informative video here.

 
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So about the Nazis. I learned yesterday that there is indeed a militia neo nazi force with a political party inside of Ukraine who joined the Ukrainian army to fight off the Russians due to their annexation of Crimea. This party gained like 2% of the vote and is a foot note in Ukrainian population, however this is what Putin used for his nazi story as many Russians are killed in the contested Donbas area while the president of Ukraine suppressed Russian culture there.

Very informative video here.

The irony here is that the entire Russian state is basically a fascist government....for them to complain about the nazi party is beyond ironic.
 
The irony here is that the entire Russian state is basically a fascist government....for them to complain about the nazi party is beyond ironic.
In Putin and the publics eyes.

1. There are real nazis who does the whole hail Hitler thing in Ukraine.

2. They have a real political party

3. The Ukrainian government allows them to fight with their own military to kill Russian civilians(most likely due to collateral damage).

4. The president also actively suppressing Russian culture in the area like banning the Russian language.

The more you learn, the more you understand how Putin and his people mostly support this war and how they are fighting the nazis. All true stories, just wildly exaggerated and has nothing to do with west Ukraine.

Moral of the story, when in doubt, never side with the Nazis even if they are of mass benefit to you at any given time. Now it turned into a propaganda that's hard to wash off.
 
In Putin and the publics eyes.

1. There are real nazis who does the whole hail Hitler thing in Ukraine.

2. They have a real political party

3. The Ukrainian government allows them to fight with their own military to kill Russian civilians(most likely due to collateral damage).

4. The president also actively suppressing Russian culture in the area like banning the Russian language.

The more you learn, the more you understand how Putin and his people mostly support this war and how they are fighting the nazis. All true stories, just wildly exaggerated and has nothing to do with west Ukraine.

Moral of the story, when in doubt, never side with the Nazis even if they are of mass benefit to you at any given time. Now it turned into a propaganda that's hard to wash off.
Putin started all of this, you are falling into the trap of making excuses for his behavior. He views Ukraine as simply a sub of Russia, 20 years ago he stated this and you only have to look at the Orange revolution to understand what he was going to do. Why were people resisting Russia? Because Putin invaded crimea, part of Ukraine. Always sure to create dissension and it would not surprise me to find out the "Nazis" were actually funded by the FSB. That would be par for the course. Don't be led off track, Russia attacked Ukraine- period. Then they looked for excuses, then they started making them. In the same way that they created Brexit, that they sought to stop fracking anywhere in Europe, on and on and on. Putin is the leader of a vile authoritarian fascist state. He cares nothing for others, simply look at Grozny before and after Putin. He's very good at manipulation and dissension and not very good at much else. Never ever make excuses for him.
 
So about the Nazis. I learned yesterday that there is indeed a militia neo nazi force with a political party inside of Ukraine who joined the Ukrainian army to fight off the Russians due to their annexation of Crimea. This party gained like 2% of the vote and is a foot note in Ukrainian population, however this is what Putin used for his nazi story as many Russians are killed in the contested Donbas area while the president of Ukraine suppressed Russian culture there.

Very informative video here.



There are neo-Nazis everywhere…………
 
So about the Nazis. I learned yesterday that there is indeed a militia neo nazi force with a political party inside of Ukraine who joined the Ukrainian army to fight off the Russians due to their annexation of Crimea. This party gained like 2% of the vote and is a foot note in Ukrainian population, however this is what Putin used for his nazi story as many Russians are killed in the contested Donbas area while the president of Ukraine suppressed Russian culture there.

Very informative video here.

Parroting Russian disinformation.
 

interesting analysis from someone who has actually taken part in US war games & outcomes

This also (although from 2016) gives an insight into some events in 2014 and saying Russia was running the insurgents / separatist movement in Eastern Ukraine.

 
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Putin started all of this, you are falling into the trap of making excuses for his behavior. He views Ukraine as simply a sub of Russia, 20 years ago he stated this and you only have to look at the Orange revolution to understand what he was going to do. Why were people resisting Russia? Because Putin invaded crimea, part of Ukraine. Always sure to create dissension and it would not surprise me to find out the "Nazis" were actually funded by the FSB. That would be par for the course. Don't be led off track, Russia attacked Ukraine- period. Then they looked for excuses, then they started making them. In the same way that they created Brexit, that they sought to stop fracking anywhere in Europe, on and on and on. Putin is the leader of a vile authoritarian fascist state. He cares nothing for others, simply look at Grozny before and after Putin. He's very good at manipulation and dissension and not very good at much else. Never ever make excuses for him.
You are reading my intentions wrong. It was more a critique on the Ukrainian government for allowing Putin to use powerful propaganda against them due to certain public opinion shifting mistakes. Putin took the opportunity and ran with it. This is why we shut down any Nazis in the US and give them no say(which was one of Trump's biggest failures and deserve to be kicked out of office).

Yes, I agree this was all orchestrated by Putin, however the government of Ukraine fell right into his traps.
 
You are reading my intentions wrong. It was more a critique on the Ukrainian government for allowing Putin to use powerful propaganda against them due to certain public opinion shifting mistakes. Putin took the opportunity and ran with it. This is why we shut down any Nazis in the US and give them no say(which was one of Trump's biggest failures and deserve to be kicked out of office).

Yes, I agree this was all orchestrated by Putin, however the government of Ukraine fell right into his traps.
If the US was being invaded by a force that was 5x as strong, you better believe we would also not turn down any help from the Proud Boys, KKK, Bundy brothers etc.

It's an entirely different situation because we have two gigantic oceans on our borders and friendly neighbors.
 
If the US was being invaded by a force that was 5x as strong, you better believe we would also not turn down any help from the Proud Boys, KKK, Bundy brothers etc.

It's an entirely different situation because we have two gigantic oceans on our borders and friendly neighbors.
This was like 8 years in the making where a small regional conflict in the donbas area allowed Putin to build a narrative to justify his invasion. I feel like the Ukrainians should have sent more troops and just crush the separatist vs letting it linger for so long. However insurgency and with local support is just hard to deal with.
 
There are neo-Nazis everywhere…………

Yes, but neo nazis killing Russians caught on tape for 8 years then add a few crisis actors in the area crying about their homes being destroyed and we have a strong backing from the Russian people for this war. There was this lady with three different names crying on TV, all part of Putins plan.
 
Bluntly, happenings in the world are strongly influenced by outsized personalities, for good or bad. The personalities through, are creatures of their times.
People desperately need to study history in order to avoid repeating historical mistakes.

Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat its mistakes.

Those who do learn from history are doomed to stand by helplessly while everyone else repeats its mistakes.
 
This was like 8 years in the making where a small regional conflict in the donbas area allowed Putin to build a narrative to justify his invasion. I feel like the Ukrainians should have sent more troops and just crush the separatist vs letting it linger for so long. However insurgency and with local support is just hard to deal with.
In late 2013/2014 the Ukrainians overthrew the corrupt Russian puppet (Yanukovich), which took until 21-Feb-2014. As Yanukovich was being forced out he invited his puppetmaster (Putin's Russia) into the Crimea and Donbass areas.

The Ukrainians did try to resist the incursions by the Russians but after the depradations of the Yanukovich period were in no condition to resist. Hence the loss of Crimea and the Donbass. There was very little genuine local support in Crimea and the Donbass, it was pretty much all a front for Russia. It still is.

 
Interesting choice of combat vehicles coming into Ukraine from Russia 🤨

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