Saleen announces their version of a Model S

[brianman]

Bigger radiator, more powerful fans, and a bigger water pump. Sounds substantial to me, not much more you could do other than a CO2 misting system.

Unless of course the firmware in the car uses specific time or other criteria to (over?)protect things.

I agree with RichKae. We need to see track performance to really know if they've done much.

If you can go 20 minutes keeping up with the ICE brethren without seeing the "dashed line of sadness" then they have my interest. Not to buy the spoiler or the nose or the other "stuff" I don't want or need, but interest in maybe giving some feedback to Tesla on maybe (I'm dreaming?...) some OEM-sanctioned adjustments to make for performance driving of the Model S for more than 1 lap.

 

[Bill D]

I've heard an unsubstantiated rumor that Weismann http://weismann.net/ is suppling the gearing and the locking differential to Saleen for their Tesla modifications.

Quick-change gearing that you could easily change at the dragstip would be very interesting. I almost can't wait for the 8-year warranty to expire.

 

[JRP3]

Unless of course the firmware in the car uses specific time or other criteria to (over?)protect things.

Interesting, but I doubt it.

I agree with RichKae. We need to see track performance to really know if they've done much.

I agree as well, but given the new gearing and the increased cooling I think some real world improvements are likely to have been made, as long as you don't care about top speed.

Not to buy the spoiler or the nose or the other "stuff" I don't want or need,

The nose is part of the increased airflow and better cooling.

 

[WarpedOne]

Interesting, but I doubt it.

The only alternative explanation I can come up with is that the overheating part has so weak heat removal that COLD coolant that many have tried already helped zilch, nada.
Rotor.
Being so hard to remove heat from they didn't even bother mounting temperature monitoring and they just calculate energy used in last N seconds, if it is higher than some X, they know rotor is to hot and the need to ease up.

If I had to bet on anything I'd bet Saleen did not improve on this "1 hot lap limitation"

 

[Matias]

^But then it does not make any sense to improve cooling. I don't think they would be that stupid.

 

[WarpedOne]

Maybe yes and no.
Maybe there are scenarios where something else overheats before rotor. It takes more time and less "energetic" driving but still enough heat to cause temps to rise. Improved cooling would improve this situations.

Or they simply removed software limit and they let the rotor "cook itself" if pushed hard enough for long enough.
It would not fail instantly but its projected lifetime will not be 1.2M miles anymore. In a racing car they can afford to shorten the lifetime to ~1/10 with no worries.

That heat from rotor flows through shaft and bearings into reduction gearbox and heats it up. They may have used more heat resistant lubricants and/or they may have dropped the "no maintenance" clause on the gearbox.
IIRC Tesla specifies 12years lifetime on gearbox lubricant. Changing used/burned lubricants in racing cars is standard practice.

I change my bet : I bet they just removed the software limit.

 

[JRP3]

The only alternative explanation I can come up with is that the overheating part has so weak heat removal that COLD coolant that many have tried already helped zilch, nada.

You mean that people have tried pre cooling the coolant or something and it made no difference? How cold did they get it?

Rotor.
Being so hard to remove heat from they didn't even bother mounting temperature monitoring and they just calculate energy used in last N seconds, if it is higher than some X, they know rotor is to hot and the need to ease up.

With a liquid cooled rotor it should not be difficult to remove heat from it. Even without a liquid cooled rotor most of the DIY setups we've seen have inverter over temp problems long before the motor. The rotor is a big chunk of metal that should take some time to heat up, and can handle higher temps than the electronics.

 

[Chris TX]

I've heard an unsubstantiated rumor that Weismann http://weismann.net/ is suppling the gearing and the locking differential to Saleen for their Tesla modifications.

Quick-change gearing that you could easily change at the dragstip would be very interesting. I almost can't wait for the 8-year warranty to expire.

Saleen said it's a MaxGrip "enhancement" made by these guys:

Weir Performance - MAXGRIP LSD Kits

 

[Matias]

You mean that people have tried pre cooling the coolant or something and it made no difference? How cold did they get it?



With a liquid cooled rotor it should not be difficult to remove heat from it. Even without a liquid cooled rotor most of the DIY setups we've seen have inverter over temp problems long before the motor. The rotor is a big chunk of metal that should take some time to heat up, and can handle higher temps than the electronics.

How do you liquid cool rotor? I mean I understand liquid cooling stator, but how do you liquid cool rotor?

IIRC Tesla has patent about hollow rotor shaft being liquid cooled, but is it implemented?

 

[tom66]

How do you liquid cool rotor? I mean I understand liquid cooling stator, but how do you liquid cool rotor?

IIRC Tesla has patent about hollow rotor shaft being liquid cooled, but is it implemented?

Hollow rotor, coolant passes through it.

 

[Denarius]

How much of a difference will the weight savings from the wheels and rotors make?

 

[WarpedOne]

You mean that people have tried pre cooling the coolant or something and it made no difference? How cold did they get it?

Yes, "icecold": The Ice Tesla Lappeth

Finally, here it came again: Time? A 1:52.17. Ahhh! A hundredth of a second slower! The ice didn't work at all; crap, the same thing had happened.

How do you liquid cool rotor?

A few ways:
a) you make it hollow and circulate liquid through it. You sacrifice metal volume producing torque hence getting lower torque/power motor. Cooling liquid also eats into efficiency.
b) you replace air between rotor and stator with coolant. You drasticaly increase drag and hence reduce torque, power and efficiency.

Industrial machines therefore don't use liquids but gasses - hydrogen. It doesn't increase drag but improves heat removal.

 

[JRP3]

Yes, "icecold": The Ice Tesla Lappeth

I remember that, it was a ridiculously bad attempt at cooling. All it may have done is cool the pack down some and reduce it's power output, while not significantly cooling the motor and inverter coolant loop. Until you put a monitor on the various cooling loops and measure actual temperatures you don't really know what is being done.

 

[qwk]

I think that the only way to get the Model S to do better on a racetrack, is to alter the firmware. The current firmware limits are, active cooling at 50*C, and passive cooling at 30*C. Tesla engineering uses a race mode, which turns on cooling manually, and pre cools everything before making laps. Ideally this would be done while plugged in, so that battery energy isn't wasted on pre-cooling.

Having said that, I really doubt that this will be implemented into production cars. Racing+very long drivetrain warranty=much more warranty expense for Tesla.

 

[WarpedOne]

I remember that, it was a ridiculously bad attempt at cooling.

It was bad but still I cannot claim it did not in fact cooled the liquids and metal a bit.
And if it was liquid temperature that matters, it would show up as prolonged full power. Maybe just a half lap, maybe just a quarter of lap. But not zero improvement.

 

[Matias]

I change my bet : I bet they just removed the software limit.

Wouldn't that require access to source code?

 

[JRP3]

It was bad but still I cannot claim it did not in fact cooled the liquids and metal a bit.
And if it was liquid temperature that matters, it would show up as prolonged full power. Maybe just a half lap, maybe just a quarter of lap. But not zero improvement.

I bet it didn't do anything to the internal coolant temperature at all. So yes, I would expect zero improvement.

 

[woof]

Wouldn't that require access to source code?

No. The values used to compare against are stored somewhere in the firmware. Just "patch" new values overtop the old ones. That's the old school way. Trouble is that in the new school of encryption signed firmware means that system could detect this tampering and refuse to run, or prevent a future update.

 

[WarpedOne]

Saleen is big enough name to get the keys to FW doors.
Sure they had to sign some documents and blah blah but they are not just another yard mechanic.

 

[yobigd20]

Saleen is big enough name to get the keys to FW doors.
Sure they had to sign some documents and blah blah but they are not just another yard mechanic.

I seriously doubt this. Tesla would not give up a line of code to Toyota for the rav4 EV project and they are much bigger than Saleen. Insight: Toyota-Tesla Partnership

Any adjustment meant opening up and sharing either Tesla or Toyota’s “code” – of which neither was willing to do