Santa Clara County retroactively Changing ESS Rules

[Vines]

From their interpretation there is no amendment needed to bring in the 1206 requirements to a ESS system larger than 20 kWh.

1206.2 Stationary Storage Battery Systems

Stationary storage battery systems having capacities exceeding the values shown in Table 1206.2 shall comply with Section 1206.2.1 through 1206.2.12.6, as applicable.
The table referenced pretty clearly states that 20 kWh is the break point where compliance with 1206 is required.

In talking with CALFire Chief of Codes and Standards, his interpretation of 1206.2 is that the 20 kWh size determines when a permit is required, which is then per CRC R327 or CFC 1206

So they don't feel like more is needed to enforce their interpretation of the code. You are correct that I could bring the lawyers in, that would be the next step, If I was taking it.

Tesla Energy is in the same boat and has more resources to pursue legal battles like this. For us we are just looking to comply at this point.

 

[Vines]

I looked up areas served by Santa Clara County Fire and found this list of fire stations for these areas. I guess when I read Santa Clara County Fire I assumed it covered all of Santa Clara County, which it doesn’t and why people in San Jose and other areas haven’t had problems with their installs.

Facilities and Fire Stations - Santa Clara County Fire Department

Since we aren’t served by SCCF our house might not be affected? Not clear if this will apply statewide or will be — something like permits and how individual cities/municipalities can have one set of rules different from another. I mention this as I’ve been told by a few of our contractors over the years doing work here how one city can approve something but another not. Case in point underground gas lines could be flexible in one city but another like ours insisted that the flexible line just installed for our bbq island be removed and this yellow non-flexible line be installed instead.

BTW laughed at reading my earlier post and my typo of 90-190 degrees (s/b 100 ). We get hot, but not that hot.

If you aren't in the areas I mentioned and ask for a permit today, i think my information is correct and you will get a permit with less restrictions. It's hard to say until you actually apply for the permit and are issued one. If you are concerned about changing codes try to get a permit sooner, as usually this locks the design in. Its rare an AHJ changes the rules mid-permit. They are usually good for 6 months and you can usually extend them for an additional fee.
Next month, next year who knows lol, things change all the time.

 

[wwhitney]

From their interpretation there is no amendment needed to bring in the 1206 requirements to a ESS system larger than 20 kWh.

You probably know this, but to be clear:

Absolutely,they are correct, the CFC 1206 requirements apply to an ESS larger than 20 kWh, where the CFC is in force.

But what they are missing is that CFC 102.5 exempts buildings subject to the California Residential Code from most of the California Fire Code, including Chapter 12. That's the whole point of the CRC, to have all the requirements for a single family house (or duplex) in one location. Instead R327 applies.

The fact the next code cycle is amending CRC R327 to be more similar to CFC 1206 is further proof of this.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[SMAlset]

If you aren't in the areas I mentioned and ask for a permit today, i think my information is correct and you will get a permit with less restrictions. It's hard to say until you actually apply for the permit and are issued one. If you are concerned about changing codes try to get a permit sooner, as usually this locks the design in. Its rare an AHJ changes the rules mid-permit. They are usually good for 6 months and you can usually extend them for an additional fee.
Next month, next year who knows lol, things change all the time.

Thanks @Vines for the replies and sorry you are facing this where you are. Tesla obtained our permit (guess I should double check for both solar and powerwalls) weeks ago. Your posts however now have me thinking we want to make sure it can apply to 3 PWs just in case (something we have considered expanding to eventually). Would I be correct that if adding a third one is done in a year or so after rulings have gone in anything new would trigger the connected heat sensor provisions and any other new changes, and everything would have to be brought up to code? Including restrictions on number of units and distancing?

 

[Vines]

You probably know this, but to be clear:

Absolutely,they are correct, the CFC 1206 requirements apply to an ESS larger than 20 kWh, where the CFC is in force.

But what they are missing is that CFC 102.5 exempts buildings subject to the California Residential Code from most of the California Fire Code, including Chapter 12. That's the whole point of the CRC, to have all the requirements for a single family house (or duplex) in one location. Instead R327 applies.

The fact the next code cycle is amending CRC R327 to be more similar to CFC 1206 is further proof of this.

Cheers, Wayne

While I do not disagree with you, I do not have further appetite to push back. This has already delayed jobs months and I have to balance getting them installed vs. keep fighting this on principles, and perhaps still not win. The CBO of Los Gatos basically backed her up and said that fire can enact more strict requirements without state approval, but not less stringent ones.

If the Division Chief of CALFire cannot convince the Fire Marshall to not apply 1206, I am not liking my chances. Soon enough the official interpretation will come through and that is my last absolute chance to change minds. That is assuming the committee and commenters all agree with my and your opinion. If you have any pull there at CALFire please yank it. If you can comment, please do.

Thanks @Vines for the replies and sorry you are facing this where you are. Tesla obtained our permit (guess I should double check for both solar and powerwalls) weeks ago. Your posts however now have me thinking we want to make sure it can apply to 3 PWs just in case (something we have considered expanding to eventually). Would I be correct that if adding a third one is done in a year or so after rulings have gone in anything new would trigger the connected heat sensor provisions and any other new changes, and everything would have to be brought up to code? Including restrictions on number of units and distancing?

AHJ are hard to predict in this way. I cannot say for sure, and nobody but them can really say either. It depends on how badly they think what you have is safe.

Typically if you do not touch the existing at all then you are ok. But adding another Powerwall via a stacking kit would probably qualify. Hard to predict, so I wont try.

 

[SMAlset]

Just checked our permit applications online and only our main panel upgrade (our electrician) and one for solar panels (Tesla Energy) has been pulled. No powerwall application.

 

[Vines]

Just checked our permit applications online and only our main panel upgrade (our electrician) and one for solar panels (Tesla Energy) has been pulled. No powerwall application.

Time to get on them and make sure they pull it. Some AHJ are accepting electronic submissions, some are totally closed.

 

[wwhitney]

Can you clarify for me what areas and what projects are subject to permitting through SCCFD? Is it areas of Santa Clara County where there is no city government, so SCCFD issues building permits? And is this the correct web page that discusses plan submittal? Plan Submittal - Santa Clara County Fire Department

Cheers, Wayne

 

[Vines]

Can you clarify for me what areas and what projects are subject to permitting through SCCFD? Is it areas of Santa Clara County where there is no city government, so SCCFD issues building permits? And is this the correct web page that discusses plan submittal? Plan Submittal - Santa Clara County Fire Department

Cheers, Wayne

It is both the unincorporated places in the county (County of Santa Clara AHJ) as well as a couple cities that contract with them for plan review (Los Gatos, Campbell) To this point those are the only ones, but the Fire Marshall might still be pushing out the new rules to other areas, I really don't know. If so it might come up into more cities in the county.

You do have the correct website location there in your link.

 

[BGbreeder]

Well, we just bumped into this 3' separation rule. (Late to the party, I know...)

In reading the referenced code, and given where we have windows on the house, it isn't clear to me that we have any external wall locations that qualify, which will be interesting, as it would be an in garage install, 75' from the main panel. But that's my problem, I guess.

However, the code seems to be written for inside installation, or at least battery installation a separate facility at a distance from the primary facility. Are external walls of a house somehow "inside" for purposes of the battery storage code?

Any updates on your end?

All the best,

BG

From their interpretation there is no amendment needed to bring in the 1206 requirements to a ESS system larger than 20 kWh.

1206.2 Stationary Storage Battery Systems

Stationary storage battery systems having capacities exceeding the values shown in Table 1206.2 shall comply with Section 1206.2.1 through 1206.2.12.6, as applicable.
The table referenced pretty clearly states that 20 kWh is the break point where compliance with 1206 is required.

In talking with CALFire Chief of Codes and Standards, his interpretation of 1206.2 is that the 20 kWh size determines when a permit is required, which is then per CRC R327 or CFC 1206

So they don't feel like more is needed to enforce their interpretation of the code. You are correct that I could bring the lawyers in, that would be the next step, If I was taking it.

Tesla Energy is in the same boat and has more resources to pursue legal battles like this. For us we are just looking to comply at this point.

 

[Vines]

Lots of updates, but essentially they are pulling forward the upcoming CRC R327.

Outside locations are the winners just make them 3' from doors or windows that lead into the residence, and each other.

Sounds like you are going on the outside of that detached garage.

 

[BGbreeder]

Thanks for the reaffirmation of the rule being 3' from door/window/powerwall. The guy doing the site survey seemed to only have the last bit, but the code you pointed out certainly reads to me like 3' from all of the above. I will get out a measuring tape, but I think, yes, it looks like the powerwalls get booted to the garage, 75' away. Can you say I^2R losses?

All the best,

BG

 

[Vines]

No problem, glad to help.

Its only doors and windows that lead into the dwelling, just to be clear. So if it was an external closet its ok, or any door or window in the garage, except the one to the living space on an attached garage.

 

[holeydonut]

No problem, glad to help.

Its only doors and windows that lead into the dwelling, just to be clear. So if it was an external closet its ok, or any door or window in the garage, except the one to the living space on an attached garage.

This seems like an extreme approach ... have there been any reports of a Powerwall getting ruptured, catching on fire, etc?

I wonder why they'd be so fickle about stacking them or proximity. The Powerwall is already a cluster of cells inside; so I don't understand the marginal safety of having them isolated like this.

 

[Vines]

This seems like an extreme approach ... have there been any reports of a Powerwall getting ruptured, catching on fire, etc?

I wonder why they'd be so fickle about stacking them or proximity. The Powerwall is already a cluster of cells inside; so I don't understand the marginal safety of having them isolated like this.

It is an extreme approach and not in the best interests of the homeowners and SCC taxpayers. These rulings made early like this ensure Powerwalls and other battery backup systems are onerously difficult to install, in any size greater than 1. This is not what the State of California wants, its not what Bay Area residents want.

There are barely any heat detectors available to retrofit like this, especially not wireless simple ones. Additionally having to install an interconnected fire alarm system can cost thousands on top of everything else. With the impact protection requirements we are talking $5-10k extra total to install batteries right now inside an attached garage.

I have not heard of any fires started by a failed Powerwall. Somewhere someone drove into one in their garage or will I am sure

They want to prevent the spread of flame to all the battery other units if one of them goes up for whatever reason, whether crash, failure, other fire, etc.

 

[holeydonut]

It is an extreme approach and not in the best interests of the homeowners and SCC taxpayers. These rulings made early like this ensure Powerwalls and other battery backup systems are onerously difficult to install, in any size greater than 1. This is not what the State of California wants, its not what Bay Area residents want.

There are barely any heat detectors available to retrofit like this, especially not wireless simple ones. Additionally having to install an interconnected fire alarm system can cost thousands on top of everything else. With the impact protection requirements we are talking $5-10k extra total to install batteries right now inside an attached garage.

I have not heard of any fires started by a failed Powerwall. Somewhere someone drove into one in their garage or will I am sure

They want to prevent the spread of flame to all the battery other units if one of them goes up for whatever reason, whether crash, failure, other fire, etc.

I wonder why Tesla doesn't put some flame or detection into the unit so it kind of becomes its own sensor? I mean it's already wired up with all these sensors and communication devices. Instead Tesla recommends the use of FLIR or Det-tronics infrared fire detection cameras and suppression systems. Those are like $5,000 solutions lolol.

Powerwall is not capable of detecting fire or flames internally, neither through software nor through detection hardware. For large outdoor projects requiring flame detection, an independent, external fire detection system can be installed by the customer. These systems do not connect or communicate with Powerwall, but can be connected to an on-site fire alarm panel for monitoring.

 

[Vines]

While I appreciate the idea, you need to understand fire departments. Code wise they have wanted heat detectors in garages a while.

Certainly getting Tesla powerwalls certified as a heat detector is a much harder path. Its a huge bureaucracy that would distract from the mission.

 

[quitepossibly]

While I appreciate the idea, you need to understand fire departments. Code wise they have wanted heat detectors in garages a while.

Have you considered just getting an alarm system connected wireless heat detector installed instead?

A lot of homes already have alarm systems, so adding a heat detector is not really that big of an expense. My insurance company already requires a burglar/fire alarm. They also require system connected smoke detectors in all bedrooms and each level. And heat detectors in attics, kitchen, near furnace and water heaters, and in garages.

 

[Vines]

Yes, I have quoted many different solutions and understand the limitations of the current available technology.

Listed Heat detectors that are wireless are not widely available or at all for many current systems.

For many homes retrofitting a whole wired alarm system is a large expense.

 

[holeydonut]

Have you considered just getting an alarm system connected wireless heat detector installed instead?

A lot of homes already have alarm systems, so adding a heat detector is not really that big of an expense. My insurance company already requires a burglar/fire alarm. They also require system connected smoke detectors in all bedrooms and each level. And heat detectors in attics, kitchen, near furnace and water heaters, and in garages.

I think you and Vines are saying the same thing. The wireless option that he likes for smoke and fire can have one unit trigger an alarm across all installed units. This way there is no "central" hub... the detection of an event just wirelessly propagates through the home.

Unfortunately that First Alert brand doesn't have a heat sensor option; and the code is very specific to needing a heat sensor that can trigger an alert across the entire home.

Maybe you're in a beneficial case in that your home is already configured with a central alarm system where the manufacturer of that system may provide a heat sensor option. This way you can get the benefits without much marginal cost.

But for most homeowners, they just have stand-alone (dumb) fire alarms. So it's cost prohibitive to use existing heat sensor solutions that can trigger a home-wide alarm.