Seems like FSD is a complete crock

[iqless]

There is no FSD. We've essentially had the same technology for 4 years: TACC with Autosteer. And while it's still the best in the business, it's disappointing that the best new Tesla you can get currently has the same self-driving performance as an AP1 Tesla car from 2014. Yeah, it has a few very small added features like automatic lane change but that's about it, really. That's just what the whole situation is: Very disappointing.

 

[diplomat33]

There is no FSD. We've essentially had the same technology for 4 years: TACC with Autosteer. And while it's still the best in the business, it's disappointing that the best new Tesla you can get currently has the same self-driving performance as an AP1 Tesla car from 2014. Yeah, it has a few very small added features like automatic lane change but that's about it, really. That's just what the whole situation is: Very disappointing.

Disagree. You are forgetting NOA, auto steer stop light warning, blind spot warning and auto lane change. Plus AP2 uses more cameras and a new NN that sees more cars than AP1 and handles traffic and lanes better than AP1. AP2 is more than just AP1 + a small feature like ALC.

 

[Saghost]

And while it's still the best in the business, it's disappointing that the best new Tesla you can get currently has the same self-driving performance as an AP1 Tesla car from 2014.

This statement suggests you're lacking in experience in one or the other. Yes, in the grossest sense they are the same - both follow lane lines and traffic and stop and go, both change lanes in reaction to a turn signal. But the newer cars respond to traffic much earlier and much smoother, and can handle a lot of conditions the flummoxed AP1 or that AP1 just ignored in a dangerous fashion.

 

[scott1002]

Very helpful. More!

 

[iqless]

Disagree. You are forgetting NOA, auto steer stop light warning, blind spot warning and auto lane change. Plus AP2 uses more cameras and a new NN that sees more cars than AP1 and handles traffic and lanes better than AP1. AP2 is more than just AP1 + a small feature like ALC.

Do the cars have stop light warning, or is it an "imminent update"? Blind spot warning, worthless in AP1, is slightly better in AP2 but still is nowhere near as dependable as the one from my 2012 Porsche. NoA is literally nothing but auto lane changes and being able to follow an exit path until the end of the exit with having to make zero decisions. I don't know what "seeing" more cars does for me unless it affects driving. I don't know how AP2 handles traffic and lanes better than AP1, it looks the same to me.

This statement suggests you're lacking in experience in one or the other. Yes, in the grossest sense they are the same - both follow lane lines and traffic and stop and go, both change lanes in reaction to a turn signal. But the newer cars respond to traffic much earlier and much smoother, and can handle a lot of conditions the flummoxed AP1 or that AP1 just ignored in a dangerous fashion.

What are those conditions? As far as I can see AP2 is not much better than AP1 when it comes to the most dangerous situation: It brakes way too late for stopped vehicles. I've driven an AP2 vehicle for two weeks last month and haven't noted any performance improvements over AP1. Autosteer is essentially same and very good on both systems. Maybe AP2 can handle harder cases a bit better but it doesn't make it more driveable in city traffic situations.

In either case. There is no FSD. No high tech language and certainly no promise of an "imminent" feature add especially coming from Elon Musk can change the fact that Tesla's "FSD Suite" doesn't even exist. Even in name. There are no features previous purchasers of regular AP2 don't have. If I bought AP2 in 2016 and paid for FSD, in the following 3 years my extra money has brought me absolutely nothing in features and still continues to not. Do you guys understand how hilariously unacceptable that is? They've just bundled a few features EAP users already had into FSD just so that FSD had some sort of difference!

For years we've had nothing but Autosteer and TACC, and now that the car can follow an exit until the exit ends we suddenly have FSD? It's "Full Self Driving". We are not even in any shape or form close to having something that remotely resembles "full self driving". The system even wants your hands on the wheel and nags you all the time. FSD is supposed to be the car handling all road cases with no human input. We aren't close to FSD at least unless there are FSD-only features, and no, not just because they've suddenly decided to restrict a bunch of regular AP features into FSD. That's not how it works.

 

[diplomat33]

Do the cars have stop light warning, or is it an "imminent update"?

No. Stop light warning was released months ago.

As far as I can see AP2 is not much better than AP1 when it comes to the most dangerous situation: It brakes way too late for stopped vehicles.

On my car, AP2.5 actually brakes early for stopped cars at red lights. It used to brake too late but that was on an older software version. It's been fixed now.

 

[Saghost]

What are those conditions? As far as I can see AP2 is not much better than AP1 when it comes to the most dangerous situation: It brakes way too late for stopped vehicles. I've driven an AP2 vehicle for two weeks last month and haven't noted any performance improvements over AP1. Autosteer is essentially same and very good on both systems. Maybe AP2 can handle harder cases a bit better but it doesn't make it more driveable in city traffic situations.

I can't speak to AP2 - I have no experience with that. My AP3 Raven, OTOH, I've had for several thousand miles now and I think I understand. It brakes for stopped cars much earlier and much more reliably. It reacts to slower cars much sooner and more smoothly. It can follow a mountain hairpin turn on Autosteer.

It sees the lane lines in an overly wide lane (AP1 merges, you could see it tracking the lane line for your lane and the next lane, then it lost the line on that side entirely for a while, then picked it back up as it closed in - every single time. My theory is that the Mobileye code has a range of possibilities for where the lane can be, and it just won't see one that isn't in the range.)

AP3 also picks out lane lines much further into low contrast situations and bad weather than AP1 did. And, of course, it sees cars around you beyond range of Ultrasound, and is actually checking the blindspots in a useful fashion before moving.

 

[Az_Rael]

My car never has "unusual" or "usual" smells. This was not true for my previous ICE vehicles.

A bit off topic, but I do wish this was true of both my 2013 S and my 2017 3. Both had/have terrible odors from the AC. Tesla makes terrible drainage systems for their HVAC or something. And I live in the desert, so it isnt a humidity issue. I should be able to leave the system on AUTO and it should be smart enough to run the climate in a way that doesn't grow mold. All Model 3 cabin air filters to be currently on backorder at my SC, so it isn't just me.

/end rant


Back on topic to FSD guesses: TACC has improved recently after a few regressions in behavior on recent updates. Phantom braking seems improved on the latest, (knock on wood). But lane positioning is getting worse - car now hugs the left line even when in the right hand lane causing many white knuckle moments when other cars pass. Lane merges are still a crapshoot and I usually disengage instead.

Obviously no FSD feature that I paid for is actually out. I do not count the redefinition of NoA, Autopark and Summon.

I think Tesla has a ways to go, but most likely they will soon release "FSD" features that still require full driver supervision (Level 2), which will be FSD in marketing terms only.

 

[davewill]

It's strictly an eye of the beholder thing at this point. Everybody has a different idea of what FSD would have to mean for them to pay $6K for it. It's also very variable how much people believe it (whatever IT is) will happen sooner rather than later. I completely understand the people who believe. However, as far as I'm personally concerned, it's vaporware, and I have no confidence it will get good enough quickly enough to be worth paying for now.

Of course I didn't spring for AP either, so maybe I'm just cheap...

 

[diplomat33]

I suspect that FSD will take us by surprise and the actual transition to FSD will be murky because of how Tesla rolls out features incrementally over time. And I suspect that folks here won't agree on when AP becomes FSD.

I envision the roll out might look something like this: AP is not FSD now of course. Tesla releases "stopping at red lights and stop signs" but that won't make AP into FSD. Then, maybe Tesla releases "City NOA" and AP can take turns at intersections. At that point, some might start saying that AP is really starting to look like FSD since it can handle traffic lights and intersections on city streets but the majority will dismiss it. AP will require driver attention and will have some cases it can't handle well. So it still won't be FSD. Maybe Tesla implements "emergency vehicle response" where AP can yield and pull over for emergency vehicles. Great but there are still some cases that AP can't handle so folks will say it is still not FSD yet. But eventually, Tesla keeps improving the reliability, adding new features incrementally. And then one day, folks go "wow, AP is really good now and really is driving me everywhere with no issues at all. It is FSD! How did that happen?"

 

[Saghost]

I suspect that FSD will take us by surprise and the actual transition to FSD will be murky because of how Tesla rolls out features incrementally over time. And I suspect that folks here won't agree on when AP becomes FSD.

I envision the roll out might look something like this: AP is not FSD now of course. Tesla releases "stopping at red lights and stop signs" but that won't make AP into FSD. Then, maybe Tesla releases "City NOA" and AP can take turns at intersections. At that point, some might start saying that AP is really starting to look like FSD since it can handle traffic lights and intersections on city streets but the majority will dismiss it. AP will require driver attention and will have some cases it can't handle well. So it still won't be FSD. Maybe Tesla implements "emergency vehicle response" where AP can yield and pull over for emergency vehicles. Great but there are still some cases that AP can't handle so folks will say it is still not FSD yet. But eventually, Tesla keeps improving the reliability, adding new features incrementally. And then one day, folks go "wow, AP is really good now and really is driving me everywhere with no issues at all. It is FSD! How did that happen?"

I dunno. A huge part of Autonomous Driving is the liability transfer. NoA is almost to the point it can drive you fine on the freeway, as long as there's no road debris or construction. But it's solidly a Level 2 system, because you're responsible for what happens.

To make it into FSD, they need Level 3 or even Level 4 - Tesla needs to certify that they're responsible if something happens before you have time to react.

That's huge gulf to bridge over. It'll be interesting to see how they approach it, and how quickly it happens. All the promises for FSD are great - what I really want for now is a reliable Level 3 system for freeways, to open up my road trips.

 

[EVNow]

Am I getting the wrong impression here?

Yes.

But, first, don't take the word FSD literally. Its just like a trade name.

It is more like a driver assistance feature currently. In that sense its good value (compared to competitors).

 

[diplomat33]

I dunno. A huge part of Autonomous Driving is the liability transfer. NoA is almost to the point it can drive you fine on the freeway, as long as there's no road debris or construction. But it's solidly a Level 2 system, because you're responsible for what happens.

To make it into FSD, they need Level 3 or even Level 4 - Tesla needs to certify that they're responsible if something happens before you have time to react.

That's huge gulf to bridge over. It'll be interesting to see how they approach it, and how quickly it happens. All the promises for FSD are great - what I really want for now is a reliable Level 3 system for freeways, to open up my road trips.

True. Presumably when Tesla has collected enough miles (billions) with no safety issues to prove that the system meets their safety reliability standard, then Tesla will certify it as fully autonomous. And when Tesla certifies AP as say L3 or L4, then yes, we can say it is FSD.

I was looking at things more from our perspective as owners. As individual drivers, we don't drive enough miles to certify AP as FSD. We have only our personal experience with AP to judge it. So, I could see at some point after FSD is "feature complete", where some owners who have a perfect experience with AP on their daily commute, feeling like AP is FSD or very close to FSD whereas other drivers who have less than perfect experience with AP on their daily commute feeling like AP is not FSD yet. Much like the debate we have today with AP where some owners feel AP is great and others feel AP is terrible and still has a long ways to go.

 

[EVNow]

To make it into FSD, they need Level 3 or even Level 4 - Tesla needs to certify that they're responsible if something happens before you have time to react.

For that to happen, first Tesla has to deliver all the features (see my FC thread). Then they need a billion or so miles driven by the fleet on FSD/AP. Then, they can assess how many accidents they would have had if the driver didn't intervene. Only then they can figure out what the risk/liability is and take ownership of any problems. That is some years away.

 

[scott1002]

Maybe I’m looking to buy the car 2 years too early for what I want.

 

[Rockster]

Based on the other threads here it seems like FSD is a complete lie. Crazy unexpected braking, can’t autopark, wanders over the road towards the center line, runs straight into stationary objects be it a simple traffic barrel or the side of a tractor trailer.

Am I getting the wrong impression here?

You have FSD?!!? You must be the first person to get it...

 

[iqless]

No. Stop light warning was released months ago.



On my car, AP2.5 actually brakes early for stopped cars at red lights. It used to brake too late but that was on an older software version. It's been fixed now.

OK, I'll concede those things, since I don't have a car right now and you're better informed. I have no reason to question your veracity.

My general point stands, though. AP has not added any features in the last few years beyond NoA which is a very minor step. I don't know why people have started calling it FSD all of a sudden. I'm guessing it's because Tesla took EAP features and made them FSD exclusive.

I'm not accusing them of anything since they made basic AP free in the meantime so that's a good thing for consumers. But I'm sure half of the reason was to be able to say there are now FSD-only features.

 

[Bet TSLA]

Maybe I’m looking to buy the car 2 years too early for what I want.

Maybe. In which case you should change what you want and buy a Tesla anyway. Sadly, you'll have to deal with a car that's only the best thing you've ever driven. And it will gradually morph into the perfect thing you want.

This is a far superior experience to driving something else until your dream car appears.

 

[Bet TSLA]

OK, I'll concede those things, since I don't have a car right now and you're better informed. I have no reason to question your veracity.

My general point stands, though. AP has not added any features in the last few years beyond NoA which is a very minor step. I don't know why people have started calling it FSD all of a sudden. I'm guessing it's because Tesla took EAP features and made them FSD exclusive.

I'm not accusing them of anything since they made basic AP free in the meantime so that's a good thing for consumers. But I'm sure half of the reason was to be able to say there are now FSD-only features.

Yeah, it's a damned shame that the Mobileye debacle set them back two years in achieving good enough computer vision. If it weren't for that we'd just be behind schedule instead of way behind.

My first Tesla was one of the first to get AP1, so I've seen every bit of autopilot appear over time. It keeps getting better. Slowly. And it's pretty much pointless now to talk about where it's at because none of us know. Where it's at is AP3 hardware with AP3 software, which none of us have now, but most of us will around the end of the year. I hope, since Tesla's timelines have a way of moving.

 

[john85775]

After initially disliking it, I'm actually glad Tesla made the change to include AP and isolate the FSD features - other cars have some (inferior) version of AP, so that's no longer a major differentiator.

So as the functionality of FSD evolves, it will all be within that bucket of capability.

Two problems-- one, Tesla has been quick to make promises on capabilities but delayed on keeping them. Two, our society has become accustomed to getting what we want RIGHT NOW. Hell, we order stuff on Amazon and it gets here the same day.