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Wiki Selling TSLA Options - Be the House

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I want to run something past the collective brain trust…. I can generate $122/contract by rolling my Jan 2024 2000 strike CCs down and out to June 24 1000 strike. If the SP recovers in a month to 900, and I want to buy them back and roll to June 2024 2000, will I gain or lose money (will the gap be larger than the original $122 I would be pocketing)?

Asking another way - will the premium gap between June 2024 1000 and 2000 strike calls increase or decrease if the SP goes from 660 to 900?

Based on the dollar change in premiums from todays drop, I think it will cost me more….
 
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call side +24.73%



Sorry, I asked that poorly... I was talking more about when you've posted deep back historical data- like this post of yours:


It shows all the largest drops ever (showing 20% being safe all weeks except the 1 covid drop) going back to IPO.... (and also has data on where the stock went in the week after)--- but I was wondering if you had all-the-way-back historical equivalent on calls.

That said, just looking at your 100 weeks chart it's clear safe would need to be at least 25% (and probably higher looking further back) which given how bad premiums start to get at that point really does point to calls being the suck compared to puts for folks trying to skim premium "safely"
 
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This drop is amazing. The long term thesis, at least for me, remains intact. We're getting down to prices where the financials will start drawing buyers, so the resistance to going lower (spring being wound) is getting higher and higher.. This has happened before, just before the breakout from the 280-380 trading range. We'd been in that for a few years. Then just before the break through 400 the shares pull all the way back to the bottom of the previous trading range of 180-280. There were some fortunes made by people buying far OTM options for very small amounts at that level. A few months later and we were through 400, on the way to 1000 (all those are pre-split share prices).

As a result - the primary risk I continue to identify, for myself at least, isn't an even lower and lower share price. The risk I am primarily guarding against is a big / fast reaction the other way and running over covered calls. As a result I have no cc open right now and am mostly not opening. Maybe on a big up day, for a 1-3 DTE position - that sort of thing. For me this strong move into close reinforces just how fast up we can go, and how easily I could have cc get overrun.


The primary question I've got tumbling right now - I expect Monday to be flat to up (uptick rule). If Tuesday becomes another leg down, is it time to turn most of the remaining cash into more leaps? Are we getting low enough to buy speculative leaps instead of share replacements?!?

It looks like IV is increasing on the June '24 2200 strike leaps, enough so that the last big drop still has these trading around $50. Still too high for me to go looking for a high leverage long duration play, but I'm continuing to monitor.

But even more share replacement leaps is looking more and more desirable to me, despite feeling like I'm going to run out of cash.
It's either this.....or the end of the world IMO.

We talk here like a select group of retail investors/traders know where this ship is going and everyone else is oblivious. There are plenty of banks and hedge funds in full agreement with our revenue and earnings projections. They may not buy into what we feel 2025+ has in store, but they somewhat believe $25-35+ in EPS is coming real soon. They simply don't want to go out on that limb until they have to.

Did anyone else get the feeling that TSLA literally dictated all market action today? I didn't look at much other than TSLA all day, but AH it became apparent we should have had a nice fat green day today across the board. The move in Tesla was so strong it played a huge role in dragging down QQQ and that set the pace for the whole market. Asia and Europe were super-green heading into the open, and then the clearly orchestrated 5/20 TSLA plan dragged US markets down.

As a TMCer it's easy to fall into this trap of Tesla being the center of the universe, but I think today it was. I add this comment because I think it ties into these @adiggs comments above. We're at another one of those 💩-or-get-off-the-pot moments for TSLA. We've beaten the "absurdly low PE" argument to death, but it's true. We can't stay in this range unless an end of the world recession is imminent, and I highly doubt one is.

And we can't slowly ratchet up from here all summer, it'll be way too easy for retail to eat up all the premiums selling BPS. Either the entire market(and actual economy) must implode, or we move back to a 150+ PE that's still not even really appropriate. In July that equates to $1,405. Should the shorts hold us down through 2Q somehow, that 150 PE becomes $1,700+ in October.

Again, we act like nobody knows these things.....I would wager they do. We just have the problem of also caring. (and being absurdly concentrated in one security with which we financially live or die)

PS: For the above reasons I've been buying Nov18 $1200c, getting me beyond 3Q earnings. Now that I've sold nearly all shares and am purely in LEAPs/calls/cash-I-need, I don't even really want to buy more straight calls. So now I'm selling weekly BPS and using the proceeds to buy things like June 2024 $1500/$1600 call spreads. Grabbed some for $9 today, and could've gotten them for $8 at the lows. That's $900 for a nearly guaranteed $10k two years from now IMO.

Not advice.
 
I want to run something past the collective brain trust…. I can generate $122/contract by rolling my Jan 2024 2000 strike CCs down and out to June 24 1000 strike. If the SP recovers in a month to 900, and I want to buy them back and roll to June 2024 2000, will I gain or lose money (will the gap be larger than the original $122)? Usually OTM calls gain more value percentage wise than ITM strikes, but it doesn’t seem possible that I would be able to go to a higher strike without paying more than the current premium difference.

Asking another way - will the premium gap between June 2024 1000 and 2000 strike calls increase or decrease if the SP goes from 660 to 900?
Put it in option profit calculator as a spread. Note: returns are really an offset from your current position.
TSLA Call Spread calculator
 
As a result - the primary risk I continue to identify, for myself at least, isn't an even lower and lower share price. The risk I am primarily guarding against is a big / fast reaction the other way and running over covered calls. As a result I have no cc open right now and am mostly not opening. Maybe on a big up day, for a 1-3 DTE position - that sort of thing. For me this strong move into close reinforces just how fast up we can go, and how easily I could have cc get overrun.
agree... i am actually thinking of the same thing the last few days - falling sp is not the problem (just stay far below and prems are still good)

it's the CC that's starting to worry me now... the danger of sudden sp reversal and -c is steamrolled (remember Hertz?)

it only takes one up week (after 10+ down weeks) and loss will be massive since CC prems are low so one is forced to creep close to the sun
 
I want to run something past the collective brain trust…. I can generate $122/contract by rolling my Jan 2024 2000 strike CCs down and out to June 24 1000 strike. If the SP recovers in a month to 900, and I want to buy them back and roll to June 2024 2000, will I gain or lose money (will the gap be larger than the original $122 I would be pocketing)?

Asking another way - will the premium gap between June 2024 1000 and 2000 strike calls increase or decrease if the SP goes from 660 to 900?

Based on the dollar change in premiums from todays drop, I think it will cost me more….
The premium gap will grow as the share price approaches the strike prices.
 
I want to run something past the collective brain trust…. I can generate $122/contract by rolling my Jan 2024 2000 strike CCs down and out to June 24 1000 strike. If the SP recovers in a month to 900, and I want to buy them back and roll to June 2024 2000, will I gain or lose money (will the gap be larger than the original $122 I would be pocketing)?

Asking another way - will the premium gap between June 2024 1000 and 2000 strike calls increase or decrease if the SP goes from 660 to 900?

Based on the dollar change in premiums from todays drop, I think it will cost me more….
The premium will grow like crazy on those contracts. It's insane how it can grow. To give you an example. I sold 1800 Jan 2023 contracts at the start of the year. When the stock went down and bottomed around March they were worth $1500 a contract (around $780 a share back then). When the market bounced and we went back to $1100 a share they were worth $9000 a contract. They are now worth $600 a contract.

If you sell $1000 strike leaps and we get even close to 900 those things are going to be worth several multiples more.

If you intend to roll back to 2000 strikes at that point. You are almost certain to lose money.
 
it only takes one up week (after 10+ down weeks) and loss will be massive since CC prems are low so one is forced to creep close to the sun
Which aligns perfectly with the primary goal....acquiring shares from retail cheaply.

We have plenty of people in this thread saying they "have to" sell CC, at pre-inclusion strikes no less!

The folks running the casino have a very obvious 1-2 punch they can throw at this crew. Squeeze the BPS sellers for weeks and then periodically bring down the hammer to wipe em out. Then reverse direction and steamroll the CC sellers and take their shares cheaply.

Tesla's earnings are at this point a well-known quantity. At least for the next 3-7 quarters. These guys know precisely what shares they want and how they plan to get em.

My hope is they're also planning to take the summer off, as usual. That would mean we "find the bottom" soon and have far fewer everyone-vs-TSLA days like today.
 
Agree with the caution on selling aggressive CCs down here.

I’ve neutralized too many big rebounds with the thinking: “I’ll just sell a few far OTM to make something at least, they’ll never hit. Besides, if they go ITM I’ll be happy the rest of my portfolio is back up.”

And then when it is back up, I’m just annoyed thinking about how much upside I capped for a few hundred bucks a contract.
 
Agree with the caution on selling aggressive CCs down here.

I’ve neutralized too many big rebounds with the thinking: “I’ll just sell a few far OTM to make something at least, they’ll never hit. Besides, if they go ITM I’ll be happy the rest of my portfolio is back up.”

And then when it is back up, I’m just annoyed thinking about how much upside I capped for a few hundred bucks a contract.


Certainly caution is wise when choosing CC strike prices in times of low SP, but are the comments over the past few pages taking full account of the ability to roll up and out?
 
not-advice
I rolled 675s (675/500 bps) down to 635/450s for next week. The quantity is small (2x cash secured put sized positions) - one idea that's passed through my head is a roll where I turn these into csp; probably need to increase the strike price a fair bit to do that successfully. At these strikes I still feel safe with these, but if we touch say 600, then I might be looking at a 2 week roll to get the strike under 600.

This drop is amazing. The long term thesis, at least for me, remains intact. We're getting down to prices where the financials will start drawing buyers, so the resistance to going lower (spring being wound) is getting higher and higher.. This has happened before, just before the breakout from the 280-380 trading range. We'd been in that for a few years. Then just before the break through 400 the shares pull all the way back to the bottom of the previous trading range of 180-280. There were some fortunes made by people buying far OTM options for very small amounts at that level. A few months later and we were through 400, on the way to 1000 (all those are pre-split share prices).

As a result - the primary risk I continue to identify, for myself at least, isn't an even lower and lower share price. The risk I am primarily guarding against is a big / fast reaction the other way and running over covered calls. As a result I have no cc open right now and am mostly not opening. Maybe on a big up day, for a 1-3 DTE position - that sort of thing. For me this strong move into close reinforces just how fast up we can go, and how easily I could have cc get overrun.


The primary question I've got tumbling right now - I expect Monday to be flat to up (uptick rule). If Tuesday becomes another leg down, is it time to turn most of the remaining cash into more leaps? Are we getting low enough to buy speculative leaps instead of share replacements?!?

It looks like IV is increasing on the June '24 2200 strike leaps, enough so that the last big drop still has these trading around $50. Still too high for me to go looking for a high leverage long duration play, but I'm continuing to monitor.

But even more share replacement leaps is looking more and more desirable to me, despite feeling like I'm going to run out of cash.
I am starting to monitor LEAP prices as well at these levels, but am curious, what type of returns are you targeting for shares converted to LEAPs? Understand this is pure guess work at this point, but wondering what others have seen in the past using this strategy.
 
I am starting to monitor LEAP prices as well at these levels, but am curious, what type of returns are you targeting for shares converted to LEAPs? Understand this is pure guess work at this point, but wondering what others have seen in the past using this strategy.
Not advice.
For DITM LEAP calls in the near term, it's sort of close to optionprice/sharePrice*Delta
June23C500 is $270, delta of 0.8
Stock is 664.
664/270*0.8=1.97
On a transaction basis, one contract is $27k, two contracts are $54k.
Stock price is $664, 54k/664 = 81 shares = 81 delta
Versus 2*100*0.8 = 160 delta or twice the movement.

Of course, that's twice the movement in either direction, as my account balance is reminding me.
Option profit calculator will let you compare calls to pure stock. It shows that at expiry, these calls are equal performance to shares if SP is $840. Above that, calls are better. Due to time value, calls may outperform stock at lower SP before expiry.

Link to this trade:
TSLA Long Call (bullish) calculator
SmartSelect_20220521-090217_Firefox.jpg
 
I get the impression from several posts here that we’ve reached the bottom for TSLA. Already talking about huge rebound.

I want to believe.. please give me your reasoning
I don’t share that belief.
Tesla the company is great and we are due a bear rally or two but this economy and market is weak.
The economy is teetering on the abyss of Recession.We are probably in one already. Iinflation unseen for 40+ years.
we can go lower.
there also seems to be a real effort from powerful forces trying to punish Tesla and Elon Musk
that is only going to get worse.
In the long run buying stock down here I believe would pay off.
Trading options in this current market with a bullish sentiment frankly would be folly IMO
 
I get the impression from several posts here that we’ve reached the bottom for TSLA. Already talking about huge rebound.

I want to believe.. please give me your reasoning
  • failing to plan is planning to fail
  • it wasn't raining when Noah built the ark
  • hope for the best, plan for the worst
in other news: rude guy sees me in Tesla and decides to race.
  • overtake from right and cut me off? i don't think so
  • go to opposite lane and overtake me from left? not today
  • race from stoplight? ARE YOU KIDDING ME?
final score: Yoona 3, shiny loud BMW 0
 
Certainly caution is wise when choosing CC strike prices in times of low SP, but are the comments over the past few pages taking full account of the ability to roll up and out?

With a few 5+% up days in a row, it’s easy to go from DOTM to ATM quickly.

The problem is when you get near the money, you never know if you should hold because it’s going to stay flat or come back down, or if it will blow by your strike in a day.

If you try to roll aggressively, you move the strike up a bit, but then you can quickly end up vulnerable with calls a couple months out that are still not that far out of the money.

It’s the same situation as those of us with DITM puts - we could have rolled them down in theory to stay below the stock price but in practice it’s not so easy.