Senator asks Tesla to disable AP until they fix "anti-nag" tricks.

[diplomat33]

Sen. Markey sent a letter to Tesla asking them to disable AP until they fix the anti nag tricks. You can watch it here:

Tesla is under pressure by Senator over Autopilot claims and nag defeat tricks - Electrek

I definitely think he has a point about the anti-nag tricks being bad and dangerous. I believe the autopilot buddy device is already illegal.

Ideally, Tesla should use a camera based driver monitoring system but unfortunately, that is not going to happen any time soon plus it could not be retrofitted into existing cars.

So what can Tesla do to solve this problem? Is there a software fix? Could Tesla modulate the torque requirement slightly so that a constant torque would not work anymore?

 

[outdoors]

Sen. Markey sent a letter to Tesla asking them to disable AP until they fix the anti nag tricks. You can watch it here:

Tesla is under pressure by Senator over Autopilot claims and nag defeat tricks - Electrek

I definitely think he has a point about the anti-nag tricks being bad and dangerous. I believe the autopilot buddy device is already illegal.

Ideally, Tesla should use a camera based driver monitoring system but unfortunately, that is not going to happen any time soon plus it could not be retrofitted into existing cars.

So what can Tesla do to solve this problem? Is there a software fix? Could Tesla modulate the torque requirement slightly so that a constant torque would not work anymore?

I called the Senators office. I asked his staffers if the Senator has ever been in or driven a Tesla. After 5 minutes they said he had not. I politely asked the following question:

If I get into my Subaru and decide to buckle the seatbelt before I get in so I don't have to hear the chime of the seatbelt ring telling me to buckle up. Should Subaru do something more to protect me? I mean I have deliberately avoided a safety measure that could save my life.

Not exactly sure this is a Tesla problem. Maybe it is up to people that read exactly what it says in the car multiple times and follow it. So what your saying @diplomat33 you would like more nags not less? So I have to be glued at a 10 and 2 position and stare straight forward. Not every Electrek article needs a solution, and why is a camera in the cabin monitoring me a ideal solution in your mind?

 

[diplomat33]

Not exactly sure this is a Tesla problem. Maybe it is up to people that read exactly what it says in the car multiple times and follow it. So what your saying @diplomat33 you would like more nags not less? So I have to be glued at a 10 and 2 position and stare straight forward. Not every Electrek article needs a solution, and why is a camera in the cabin monitoring me a ideal solution in your mind?

No, I would prefer less nags or even no nags at all! But until AP becomes a fully autonomous system that can't happen so we are stuck with nags for the time being.

And a camera monitoring system is better because it is more effective at detecting if the driver is actually paying attention. Holding the wheel which can be fooled is not a good indicator if you are actually paying attention or not. But directly monitoring your face and seeing where you are looking is a good method for tracking driver attention. It also has the added benefited of providing true hands free driving. That is why virtually every other car maker is using that system instead of Tesla's nags. If Tesla had a camera based driver monitoring system, then we would not need the nags at all and we could get hands free driving.

 

[outdoors]

No, I would prefer less nags or even no nags at all! But until AP becomes a fully autonomous system that can't happen so we are stuck with nags for the time being.

And a camera monitoring system is better because it is more effective at detecting if the driver is actually paying attention. Holding the wheel which can be fooled is not a good indicator if you are actually paying attention or not. But directly monitoring your face and seeing where you are looking is a good method for tracking driver attention. It also has the added benefited of providing true hands free driving. That is why virtually every other car maker is using that system instead of Tesla's nags. If Tesla had a camera based driver monitoring system, then we would not need the nags at all and we could get hands free driving.

Virtually every other car maker? Like you mean Cadillac on 3D mapped roads? Outside of that you are SOL off those roads. Anyone else complete your virtually every other car maker.

I disagree that if Tesla had what you describe (camera in car) we would be there. So far from it.

No we aren't stuck with nags. Nags are there to make sure you are only doing what the car is capable of doing. Just like a seatbelt can only do what it can if I am buckled in it.

If I do things to tinker with that system and someone or myself is injured.... I should be held accountable. Not Tesla.


Edit add: I only see Cadillac on the list of hands free and here is a list of features.
https://www.cars.com/articles/which-cars-have-self-driving-features-for-2019-402645/

 

[Naws]

I have a new Model X, just drove it 1,450 miles, 98% on AutoSteering and AutoPilot. I don’t know how putting in a water-bottle or orange could work, as the car asks for a slight steering-wheel nudge confirmation. I think this is fine. The “nags” are good, and keep me focused. The car isn’t detecting a human grip, it’s asking for a physical confirmation. I can be holding the steering wheel tightly and it still asks for a slight nudge every once-in-awhile. The idea of an inside camera I think is not a good one. That would be an invasion of privacy!

 

[Tam]

...And a camera monitoring system is better because it is more effective at detecting if the driver is actually paying attention...

What would you do about the Cadillac CT6 Super Cruise with a camera monitoring the driver?

Within the first test session, reporters were able to adapt to the nanny camera system and started to do e-mails, Slack.com with co-workers, Facebook Live Session, e-mail, social media...

...So what can Tesla do to solve this problem?...

The senator has an emotional answer but it is not based on statistics.

Of course, there are abusers but the statistics as a whole shows that Autopilot is safer than manual driving.

I too also recognize that Autopilot has made my driving much safer.

The best way to solve this problem is full speed ahead for FSD and not to worry about abusers (such as in the case of Cadillac CT6 Super Cruise nanny cam system above).

 

[s1rk]

No we aren't stuck with nags. Nags are there to make sure you are only doing what the car is capable of doing. Just like a seatbelt can only do what it can if I am buckled in it.

If I do things to tinker with that system and someone or myself is injured.... I should be held accountable. Not Tesla.

+1

But directly monitoring your face and seeing where you are looking is a good method for tracking driver attention. It also has the added benefited of providing true hands free driving.

Tesla AP is currently so far from full self driving that it's probably best for people to keep their hands on the wheel.

 

[Eno Deb]

If I get into my Subaru and decide to buckle the seatbelt before I get in so I don't have to hear the chime of the seatbelt ring telling me to buckle up. Should Subaru do something more to protect me? I mean I have deliberately avoided a safety measure that could save my life.

The Senator is more concerned about the safety of other people on the road who might be endangered by reckless Tesla drivers using these tricks. He's obviously a bit out of touch (and the way he badgered the NHTSA guy was a bit cringy), but he's not wrong. The current driver monitoring system, if you can call it that, is neither particularly safe nor very convenient for the driver.

 

[LowlyOilBurner]

Pretty much every auto manufacturer has some sort of lane centering option or feature which can be over come by fruits, vegetables or a bottle with liquid in it. Why single out Tesla?

 

[Big Earl]

Pretty much every auto manufacturer has some sort of lane centering option or feature which can be over come by fruits, vegetables or a bottle with liquid in it. Why single out Tesla?

Exactly. Toyota, Nissan, Volkswagen and others are all susceptible to the same safety defeats. Don't single out Tesla.

 

[kkillebrew]

Sen. Markey sent a letter to Tesla asking them to disable AP until they fix the anti nag tricks. You can watch it here:

Tesla is under pressure by Senator over Autopilot claims and nag defeat tricks - Electrek

I definitely think he has a point about the anti-nag tricks being bad and dangerous. I believe the autopilot buddy device is already illegal.

Ideally, Tesla should use a camera based driver monitoring system but unfortunately, that is not going to happen any time soon plus it could not be retrofitted into existing cars.

So what can Tesla do to solve this problem? Is there a software fix? Could Tesla modulate the torque requirement slightly so that a constant torque would not work anymore?

Tesla could also tell the guy to pound sand...

 

[diplomat33]

Tesla AP is currently so far from full self driving that it's probably best for people to keep their hands on the wheel.

Yes, exactly. That's why Tesla has nags. And that's why a system that tricks AP into thinking that the driver has their hands on the wheel when they really don't, is so dangerous. A system that is not FSD should not be used as if it is.

 

[Daniel in SD]

I bet Tesla could easily detect these constant weight defeat devices. I doubt a human arm gives constant force on the wheel over the course of minutes.

 

[Daniel in SD]

I bet Tesla could easily detect these constant weight defeat devices. I doubt a human arm gives constant force on the wheel over the course of minutes.

Though thinking about it more they'd probably have to use accelerometer data to compensate for bumps in the road.

 

[NoMoGas]

Sen. Markey sent a letter to Tesla asking them to disable AP until they fix the anti nag tricks. You can watch it here:

Tesla is under pressure by Senator over Autopilot claims and nag defeat tricks - Electrek

I definitely think he has a point about the anti-nag tricks being bad and dangerous. I believe the autopilot buddy device is already illegal.

Ideally, Tesla should use a camera based driver monitoring system but unfortunately, that is not going to happen any time soon plus it could not be retrofitted into existing cars.

So what can Tesla do to solve this problem? Is there a software fix? Could Tesla modulate the torque requirement slightly so that a constant torque would not work anymore?

Here is my feeling... Is someone going to die? Yes. People die every day from cars being misused. Why is ANY car capable of doing over 90mph? Speed is the #1 cause of vehicle crashes and deaths. The difference? If you misuse AP, chances are the person killed will be INSIDE the car as opposed to innocent drivers. That said, you're still talking about INCREDIBLY RARE instances.

Simply put, the (uninformed) gentleman from Massachusetts is speaking out if his arse. And he knows it.

 

[NoMoGas]

Yes, exactly. That's why Tesla has nags. And that's why a system that tricks AP into thinking that the driver has their hands on the wheel when they really don't, is so dangerous. A system that is not FSD should not be used as if it is.

I see your point but I disagree. It's unsafe to the idiots using it, but not the general public (generally). The car will in most cases not hit a vehicle or object except rare cases that don't realy put the regular public in danger. Theres a reason we know of the few deaths that occurred... they are very rare.

 

[ash9.58]

I have just 2 questions for the Senator, first How is it thousands die from guns in America and safeguards are not even looked at. The second is that the 727 killed over 200+folk while Boeing govern it's self ,now the plane is back in the air. I'm ALL for safety but Teslas have less accidents than ICE relatively speaking. I think he's in the pocket of ICE makers just coming on the EV line, giving them opportunity to catch up otherwise it doesnt make sense to restrict autopilot users who are not abusive and put us all in the same bucket when all other safety measures on things that kill more Americans on average go willy-nilly, it makes No sense!

 

[NZRGUY]

I called the Senators office. I asked his staffers if the Senator has ever been in or driven a Tesla. After 5 minutes they said he had not. I politely asked the following question:

If I get into my Subaru and decide to buckle the seatbelt before I get in so I don't have to hear the chime of the seatbelt ring telling me to buckle up. Should Subaru do something more to protect me? I mean I have deliberately avoided a safety measure that could save my life.

Not exactly sure this is a Tesla problem. Maybe it is up to people that read exactly what it says in the car multiple times and follow it.

Perhaps what all cars should have is a camera that checks that people have the seat belts on, in fact, a in car camera could check a lot of things, ie using cell phones texting etc...

So ultimately what the senator is suggesting is get all manufacturers of cars to retrofit a camera with vision capability onto their cars... Imagine a world wide roll out of that!!!!

 

[NZRGUY]

Perhaps what all cars should have is a camera that checks that people have the seat belts on, in fact, a in car camera could check a lot of things, ie using cell phones texting etc...

So ultimately what the senator is suggesting is get all manufacturers of cars to retrofit a camera with vision capability onto their cars... Imagine a world wide roll out of that!!!!

 

[alsetym]

No, I would prefer less nags or even no nags at all! But until AP becomes a fully autonomous system that can't happen so we are stuck with nags for the time being.

And a camera monitoring system is better because it is more effective at detecting if the driver is actually paying attention. Holding the wheel which can be fooled is not a good indicator if you are actually paying attention or not. But directly monitoring your face and seeing where you are looking is a good method for tracking driver attention. It also has the added benefited of providing true hands free driving. That is why virtually every other car maker is using that system instead of Tesla's nags. If Tesla had a camera based driver monitoring system, then we would not need the nags at all and we could get hands free driving.

I STRONGLY disagree. Based on how AP fails, I think peoples hands SHOULD be on the wheels. If someone wants to defeat it, their a$$ in an accident. Every system is defeatable. You can disable your ABS by pulling a fuse. Disable AEB in any number of ways.

Luckily it seems so far that when AP fails due to someone cheating it results in only the driver getting hurt/killed. Now that I think of it, that is interesting. I guess it shows that AP will typically not hit other cars, just barriers.