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Service manager statement: P3D has a different drive unit than 3D

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I asked a Tesla showroom employee in early May when a Performance Model 3 might be coming out. He confidently told me that wouldn't happen "before the end of the year" and "not before the Model S refresh" because it would "obviously cannibalize Model S sales."

The Performance Model 3 was announced the next week. So yeah, I'm not sure I'd put much faith in a Tesla employee's comments...

It's similar to Apple, where the store employees don't know any more about new releases or products until everyone else.

Having said that, sure some Tesla employee could try and load a Performance software upgrade on an AWD car and see if it works...
 
First post here, I had been posting in the tesla.com forums but I'm looking for more information.

I ordered a regular AWD. I paid for an AWD. All paperwork and window stickers say nothing about P. I have no door stickers that I can find that say anything informative about the build type.

But I definitely have red underlines under dual motor on the car screen and my app, and I can definitely put it "sport" acceleration. And based on some very unscientific 0-60 tests, I'm getting low 3 seconds. Car is not P+, I have no red brakes, etc.

So while this seems to be great, I do have lingering concerns about the possibility that this is P software put on a car that was not made to handle it.

So which is it?:

1. They put P software on non-P hardware.
2. They put P software on P hardware.
3. They put P software on the hardware and there is no P or nonP hardware, just hardware.

I really don't know.

I'm going with 2.

Warning: my opinion follows with assumptions....
If we take Elon's Tweet as factual, at some point in the process (FET manufacturing, inverter test, drive unit test), the drive units are divided into P worthy and P unworthy. This information would be stored in the drive unit itself (along with things like part and serial number) perhaps as a max current value and thermal limit lookup table (at this temp, only allow x much power). These hard limits would not be overridable. Whereas there can be configurable limits for AWD vs P vs P+ performance levels. (like how a P100D can simulate a P75D, the throttle signal goes directly to the drive unit, so is needs to be handled there)

So a P unit can go to 11, and an AWD unit can only go to ten. If you try to set the AWD unit limit to 11, it will either reject the configuration or allow it, but still only go to 10. However, on a P unit, the configurable limit can be set lower to 10, that that is as much as it will give you.
 
If I were an insurance company I would want to know which is which, since it isn't readily available via VIN. Once they start realizing you can't tell AWD folks may have to start paying more to cover the P folks (potential) accidents.

L was not traceable either (available as upgrade). In some posted videos, extra acceleration prevents accidents (and really, any Tesla can get to an unsafe (US) speed, the extra 10-20 MPH isn't going to make a big difference).
 
L was not traceable either (available as upgrade). In some posted videos, extra acceleration prevents accidents (and really, any Tesla can get to an unsafe (US) speed, the extra 10-20 MPH isn't going to make a big difference).
Yeah, but the P85D, P90D, and P100D all literally have larger rear drive units, so it would be impossible for an end user to get a 85/90/100D by mistake when getting the performance model or vice versa. Insurance companies know that you have the performance model and can raise your rates because the VIN is different. This does highlight how would they know if you had EAP and FSD as those are just software, but that is another conversation to be had.

I guess Tesla isn't required to differentiate the P vs AWD by VIN even if the drive units are different (I cannot find anything that says they have to).
 
For the P3D vs 3D hardware issue.. I'm surprised people believe EM twitter comments have much more credibility than anything a service person says. He doesn't have a very good track record either.

If I were an insurance company I would want to know which is which, since it isn't readily available via VIN. Once they start realizing you can't tell AWD folks may have to start paying more to cover the P folks (potential) accidents.

I highly doubt the accident rate is that different. Possibly even lower on the P model because it is more likely the average age of the owner is higher due to the higher cost? What will be higher is the repair\replacement cost though, since it costs so much more to replace if it is totaled (which would incline the insurance company to repair instead of replace).
 
Yeah, but the P85D, P90D, and P100D all literally have larger rear drive units, so it would be impossible for an end user to get a 85/90/100D by mistake when getting the performance model or vice versa. Insurance companies know that you have the performance model and can raise your rates because the VIN is different. This does highlight how would they know if you had EAP and FSD as those are just software, but that is another conversation to be had.

I guess Tesla isn't required to differentiate the P vs AWD by VIN even if the drive units are different (I cannot find anything that says they have to).

Yeah RWD, D, and P have different drive unit combos, thus different VIN digits, but P vs PL was contactors and pyro fuse + SW calibration on the same drive units.
VIN calls out drive type, same physical construction with different calibrations seems to be off scope. (rear axle ratios on trucks do not get separate VINs for instance)

For the P3D vs 3D hardware issue.. I'm surprised people believe EM twitter comments have much more credibility than anything a service person says. He doesn't have a very good track record either.

I'll believe the guy paying for the test equipment and eliminating the bottle necks at the factory over the guy installing the units. However, in this case they are in agreement. The factory testing results in different part number for physically indistinguishable DUs...
 
Yeah RWD, D, and P have different drive unit combos, thus different VIN digits, but P vs PL was contactors and pyro fuse + SW calibration on the same drive units.
VIN calls out drive type, same physical construction with different calibrations seems to be off scope. (rear axle ratios on trucks do not get separate VINs for instance)



I'll believe the guy paying for the test equipment and eliminating the bottle necks at the factory over the guy installing the units. However, in this case they are in agreement. The factory testing results in different part number for physically indistinguishable DUs...
Ooh, I did find this, https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-2011-title49-vol6/pdf/CFR-2011-title49-vol6-part565.pdf
(d)
Engine type
means a power source
with defined characteristics such as
fuel utilized, number of cylinders, dis-
placement, and net brake horsepower.
The specific manufacturer and make
shall be represented if the engine pow-
ers a passenger car or a multipurpose
passenger vehicle, or truck with a
gross vehicle weight rating of 4536 kg
(10,000 lb) or less.
net brake HP notwithstanding, it appears that Tesla doesn't have to differentiate Drive Units if they are physically the same, but otherwise somehow limited. So yeah for the S/X P/D get different VINs cause there are physically different DU's, whereas 3 P/D get the same VIN cause they are the same.

Not so much a loophole but an interesting oversight. So that kind of begs the question, if you got into an accident in an AWD 3, aside from you telling them, how do they know you don't have the Performance version, or vice versa?
 
I find it funny that some people don't believe that the dual motor and dual motor performance versions don't have the same motor units when Musk even tweet about it being different. And now the SC manager even says so. How much more proof do you need. Not that i care but come on; stop speculating already....You get what you pay for! lol
 
I find it funny that some people don't believe that the dual motor and dual motor performance versions don't have the same motor units when Musk even tweet about it being different. And now the SC manager even says so. How much more proof do you need. Not that i care but come on; stop speculating already....You get what you pay for! lol
I think it’s just a question of whether they are physically different or different because they were bin sorted and possibly had a non-volatile memory burned with a different value.
 
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First post here, I had been posting in the tesla.com forums but I'm looking for more information.

I ordered a regular AWD. I paid for an AWD. All paperwork and window stickers say nothing about P. I have no door stickers that I can find that say anything informative about the build type.

But I definitely have red underlines under dual motor on the car screen and my app, and I can definitely put it "sport" acceleration. And based on some very unscientific 0-60 tests, I'm getting low 3 seconds. Car is not P+, I have no red brakes, etc.

So while this seems to be great, I do have lingering concerns about the possibility that this is P software put on a car that was not made to handle it.

So which is it?:

1. They put P software on non-P hardware.
2. They put P software on P hardware.
3. They put P software on the hardware and there is no P or nonP hardware, just hardware.

I really don't know.
9,000$ error in your favor. Enjoy your good luck!!!! Don’t ask questions.
 
For the P3D vs 3D hardware issue.. I'm surprised people believe EM twitter comments have much more credibility than anything a service person says. He doesn't have a very good track record either.
Theories here:

1) they are no longer bin sorting. It is entirely possible that original plan was to bin sort. Then if they found that vast majority were meeting P spec, as should be the case if mfg process solid, it would be valuable simplification to offer 1 part and software switch when needed with minimal warranty risk. So, musk may have been stating original plan... which evolved based on real testing data.

2) they are sorting. Many more units meet P spec than are reflected in P sales. So, many (but not all) D cars are configurable to P.

Based on the many delivery center configuration changes reported, I believe one of these to be true. Neither makes musk a liar.
 
Personally, the most credible piece of information to convince me (for now) that the motors are identical in 3D and P3D is that the EPA efficiency of both cars is identical. I think, Tesla only tested one and used that result for both P and non-P. To me, it is easier to software limit a single motor design to get 2 or even 3 different power configurations.

Compare Side-by-Side
 
This was described by EM a while ago.
It isn’t a different design, just different testing before being tagged as suitable for P3
True...but just as with other typical chip procedures, the 'binned' units carry a different prt number and different performance characteristics. All this debate seems t have forgotten the original description of P3D and P3D+.

Just in case many of us do not remember:
P3D+ and P3D- have identical motors, control units (including inverters and all associated hardware and software)
P3D+ does have larger brakes and wheels plus the sometiem to be delivered cosmetic ID.
3D has the same motors and control units and P but they are NOT binned, so are not software upgradable.

These differences appear to be minor but anybody who has ever bough chips wholesale knows about bin-sorting extra testing and dramatically differnet price points and performance based on those differences. Outside this world one rarely finds vastly different performance based on components that look the same and are plug-compatible.

IMHO, based only on logic, not inside information, is that software loading errors are more likely when the differences are not overtly distinct beyond part numbers. Thus, even though in the computer world such errors are uncommon, the the auto world is quite different, making such errors less unlikely. That is my guess, even though I think these mistakes should not happen, they do. (FWIW, many years ago I owned a turbocharged car that had two models, one with higher pressures, one lower. All the hardware was the same, but the higher pressure one required premium fuel, the lower one did not. There were mistakes. I was the recipient on one such mistake per performance, but Monroney and VIN did not show that. Maybe I am less surprised by these Tesla errors because of that experience.)
 
True...but just as with other typical chip procedures, the 'binned' units carry a different prt number and different performance characteristics. All this debate seems t have forgotten the original description of P3D and P3D+.

Just in case many of us do not remember:
P3D+ and P3D- have identical motors, control units (including inverters and all associated hardware and software)
P3D+ does have larger brakes and wheels plus the sometiem to be delivered cosmetic ID.
3D has the same motors and control units and P but they are NOT binned, so are not software upgradable.

These differences appear to be minor but anybody who has ever bough chips wholesale knows about bin-sorting extra testing and dramatically differnet price points and performance based on those differences. Outside this world one rarely finds vastly different performance based on components that look the same and are plug-compatible.

IMHO, based only on logic, not inside information, is that software loading errors are more likely when the differences are not overtly distinct beyond part numbers. Thus, even though in the computer world such errors are uncommon, the the auto world is quite different, making such errors less unlikely. That is my guess, even though I think these mistakes should not happen, they do. (FWIW, many years ago I owned a turbocharged car that had two models, one with higher pressures, one lower. All the hardware was the same, but the higher pressure one required premium fuel, the lower one did not. There were mistakes. I was the recipient on one such mistake per performance, but Monroney and VIN did not show that. Maybe I am less surprised by these Tesla errors because of that experience.)
Don’t disagree. But consider that Tesla’s biggest challenge right now is matching configs and getting cars delivered in order to achieve mission critical profitability during last 2 quarters of this year. If “yield” on P capable DUs exceeds P sales, they are not going to hold thousands of Ps unsold while delaying D deliveries. So, we have a lot of cars that are being configured to match demand. I don’t think the reported issues are original Monroney errors... they are failure to update Monroney when car is matched and config changes.