So… Highland is out…

[FastLaneJB]

Just got off the phone to Elon. He said he's thrilled with the free advertising ...

I just spoke to him and he told me they’ve got data that only 2% of buyers use all the seats so he’s going to remove 1 at the rear along with one of the doors to save on cost. They’ll re-invest that into 1 more speaker and another USB C port instead.

 

[TechnoWatch]

I would imagine so but when you are setting off in subzero temps and your cabin is freezing and so is your battery there probably is not enough heat to scavenge so it has to make its own but it does that using the rear motor to generate heat rather than a resistive heater.

Absolute zero (-273deg C) is the only point there is no heat in the air.

The lowest operating is defined by the heat pump transfer liquid (think antifreeze)

Another way to think about it is “How can an Air source heat pump heat a house when the outside air temp is below the freezing temperature of water?” Which, for a house is a common use case!

 

[FastLaneJB]

Absolute zero (-273deg C) is the only point there is no heat in the air.

The lowest operating is defined by the heat pump transfer liquid (think antifreeze)

Another way to think about it is “How can an Air source heat pump heat a house when the outside air temp is below the freezing temperature of water?” Which, for a house is a common use case!

I’d probably let the misses turn the central heating on if it gets to -273deg C outside.

 

[Jason71]

Absolute zero (-273deg C) is the only point there is no heat in the air.

The lowest operating is defined by the heat pump transfer liquid (think antifreeze)

Another way to think about it is “How can an Air source heat pump heat a house when the outside air temp is below the freezing temperature of water?” Which, for a house is a common use case!

I appreciate that it is entirely possible in theory and I am not a heating engineer. But to preheat the cabin of the car to 20degrees in the 5-10 minutes that it seems to take while also warming the battery in subzero ( centigrade) temperatures would require a heat pump of a certain physical size and power.
And what I am saying is that I don't believe that the system on the Tesla would be able to generate the necessary amount of heat purely from the air in that time and thus it is supplemented under those conditions by heat generated from the motors.
What evidence do I have for this? not much. We know the motors can be used to deliberately generate heat. If they are not doing it under these conditions then when the heck is that feature being used?

 

[TechnoWatch]

We know the motors can be used to deliberately generate heat. If they are not doing it under these conditions then when the heck is that feature being used?

It may well be a legacy feature that is no longer used... can't think of any others on a Tesla

 

[Adopado]

And what I am saying is that I don't believe that the system on the Tesla would be able to generate the necessary amount of heat purely from the air in that time and thus it is supplemented under those conditions by heat generated from the motors.
What evidence do I have for this? not much. We know the motors can be used to deliberately generate heat. If they are not doing it under these conditions then when the heck is that feature being used?

It may well be a legacy feature that is no longer used... can't think of any others on a Tesla

The motors are definitely used to produce heat. This is a comprehensive analysis and explanation of how the system works. It's worth spending the 1 hour and 12 minutes required if you have an interest! The Octovalve specifically exists to channel warmth and or cooling from several different sources ... including from the motors. On this topic at least we do not need to speculate.

 

[TechnoWatch]

The motors are definitely used to produce heat. This is a comprehensive analysis and explanation of how the system works. It's worth spending the 1 hour and 12 minutes required if you have an interest! The Octovalve specifically exists to channel warmth and or cooling from several different sources ... including from the motors. On this topic at least we do not need to speculate.

The video linked is indeed very informative, It proves that it uses the resistive method to produce heat in low temperatures (Linked timestamp)-

- but obviously that is extremely inefficient

The Air heat source is covered here (Linked timestamp):

 

[Mrklaw]

if the stereo now has more speakers and sounds better than most other cars - doesn't that seem overkill for a regular car? overkill enough to spend the difference on stalks?

I'm thinking stalks aren't a cost saving thing its a hubris thing because robo taxi or something that won't be relevant in the lifetime of these cars and the computer systems they use

 

[Mark89052]

if the stereo now has more speakers and sounds better than most other cars - doesn't that seem overkill for a regular car? overkill enough to spend the difference on stalks?

I'm thinking stalks aren't a cost saving thing its a hubris thing because robo taxi or something that won't be relevant in the lifetime of these cars and the computer systems they use

Quite possibly is something along those lines, getting in testing early, it’s almost ‘because they can’ they do it, I wonder if extra speakers at both levels is to do with rear screen being able to play sound independently, although wonder how muddled that will be with music in front and sound from movie for instance playing in rear?

 

[randompixel]

Quite possibly is something along those lines, getting in testing early, it’s almost ‘because they can’ they do it, I wonder if extra speakers at both levels is to do with rear screen being able to play sound independently, although wonder how muddled that will be with music in front and sound from movie for instance playing in rear?

You can link Bluetooth headsets to the rear screen via the rear screen app. I think that is the way you're meant to have independent audio.

 

[bkp_duke]

if the stereo now has more speakers and sounds better than most other cars - doesn't that seem overkill for a regular car? overkill enough to spend the difference on stalks?

I'm thinking stalks aren't a cost saving thing its a hubris thing because robo taxi or something that won't be relevant in the lifetime of these cars and the computer systems they use

It's not just the stalks, it's the wiring for them. That's actually a very costly part. Modern cars have MILES of copper wire in them.

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with the stalk standpoint, just saying the stalks themselves are only part of the cost savings. Wiring is the other part.

And yes, going from 14 to 17 speakers (and increasing costs in wiring there) seems a tad overkill for a car in this price range.

 

[Durzel]

Lack of stalks might not be much of an issue in the States, given the scarcity of roundabouts and the fact that FSD beta is an actual thing that appears to work fairly well over there.

In Europe FSD beta doesn't exist, and won't be available for several years, certainly beyond the point at which a new Highland owner would be looking to replace their car. I stupidly bought into the narrative that FSD beta would be "Coming later this year", in 2020, because that's explicitly what Tesla told me on the website. I hadn't done enough offline research to work out that this was completely unrealistic given the existence of UNECE, etc before purchase.

All of that is to say removing stalks when drivers in Europe have to deal with roundabouts and will need to for the practical lifetime of these new cars is - like removing parking sensors and camera-based auto wipers - a decision made in present day to save money, argued by Tesla and its uncritical zealots in service of a future that doesn't exist yet.

 

[spdpsba]

Lack of stalks might not be much of an issue in the States, given the scarcity of roundabouts

I told you so @ACarneiro - shots fired. Can’t wait for others to join in and then the legal challenge and so on. Here you go

 

[Irata]

if the stereo now has more speakers and sounds better than most other cars - doesn't that seem overkill for a regular car? overkill enough to spend the difference on stalks?

I'm thinking stalks aren't a cost saving thing its a hubris thing because robo taxi or something that won't be relevant in the lifetime of these cars and the computer systems they use

My thinking is that Tesla have always wanted the acceleration and sound system as one of their unique selling points. So they won't cut corners on this, but will on almost everything else.

It's a rather common thing to do.

 

[Adapsys]

Lack of stalks might not be much of an issue in the States, given the scarcity of roundabouts and the fact that FSD beta is an actual thing that appears to work fairly well over there.

In Europe FSD beta doesn't exist, and won't be available for several years, certainly beyond the point at which a new Highland owner would be looking to replace their car. I stupidly bought into the narrative that FSD beta would be "Coming later this year", in 2020, because that's explicitly what Tesla told me on the website. I hadn't done enough offline research to work out that this was completely unrealistic given the existence of UNECE, etc before purchase.

All of that is to say removing stalks when drivers in Europe have to deal with roundabouts and will need to for the practical lifetime of these new cars is - like removing parking sensors and camera-based auto wipers - a decision made in present day to save money, argued by Tesla and its uncritical zealots in service of a future that doesn't exist yet.

Agree, this is a decision made without thinking about road systems worldwide. It’s a real shame as for me personally this is a show stopper and will stop me changing cars. I ultimately hope Tesla eventually give an option for stalks (look at the yoke on the model S/X - that is now an option rather than Standard). This feels like one of those times I would actually be happy if the EU mandated it!

 

[WannabeOwner]

Lack of stalks might not be much of an issue in the States, given the scarcity of roundabouts

There are a number of States in America that have significant numbers of roundabouts (significant enough to pose the same problem to American drivers as to us here in UK). Anyway, having "quite a lot of roundabouts" or "Billions of them" is no difference - if it doesn't work for "Billions" it won't work for "quite a lot" either.

This is definitely a problem for USA drivers too (well, in those states where Roundabouts exist)

That has no bearing on whether Tesla are arrogant enough to have considered it and discounted it, but this is not specifically a non-USA problem.

It’s a real shame as for me personally this is a show stopper and will stop me changing cars

I am reserving judgment until I've tried it. But if I find I don't like it I am confident that there will be 3rd party after-market solutions available (assuming I don't have a bunch of other gripes that put me off buying another Tesla)

 

[FastLaneJB]

My thinking is that Tesla have always wanted the acceleration and sound system as one of their unique selling points. So they won't cut corners on this, but will on almost everything else.

It's a rather common thing to do.

Makes sense vs being jack of all trade and master of none. Plus in China they all sit in traffic a lot so sound systems and in-car entertainment is pretty important.

 

[khyros]

does the new model 3 boot has a 12V plug in the boot? I suppose not but it annoys me the Model Y does

 

[smogne41]

It's not just the stalks, it's the wiring for them. That's actually a very costly part. Modern cars have MILES of copper wire in them.

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with the stalk standpoint, just saying the stalks themselves are only part of the cost savings. Wiring is the other part.

And yes, going from 14 to 17 speakers (and increasing costs in wiring there) seems a tad overkill for a car in this price range.

There is absolutely no additional wiring needed for the stalks. The SCCM (module that the stalks are mounted to) already has LIN, CAN bus, and power connections regardless of if the stalks are present or not. The Model S/X without stalks use exactly the same SCCM as the Model 3/Y with stalks, just the stalk units are removed. I would be astounded if Highland uses a different SCCM, and even if it does it will still have all those connections regardless.

Teslas are loosing stalks because Elon thinks it looks better without them. Usability be damned. No other reason.

 

[Zilla91]

But if I find I don't like it I am confident that there will be 3rd party after-market solutions available

Let us know what your insurer thinks about you adding 3rd party stalks