So… Highland is out…

[Roger20]

You've lost the argument when all you have left are personal insults

Personally I found your reply to me pretty insulting. I have no need to justify my purchase to you or to anyone else. I was simply trying to post a reply which might have been helpful to anyone who hasn't experienced the new Highland and has been influenced by the negative comments from folk like you.

All you are doing by continuing the long running negative narrative is simply being unhelpful. The whole purpose of forums like this is to let us share our experiences which in my case is reality whereas yours is simply theoretical.

Time to draw a line under this @Zilla91?

 

[qwickshot]

It’s fair to say there is a large dose of confirmation bias on both side of the argument from people who have never driven the car.

I’m not passing judgement until I’ve driven the car, plain and simple. That’s probably going to be awhile as I’m only 2 months into a 4 year Model Y lease but if I’ve got a convenient time to take one out, I will.

I was rather apprehensive about the lack of parking sensors coming from a 3 that had them. I’ve now driven and parked the car in all weathers and frankly, it’s nothing to worry about in January 2024*. They work fine and as well as the parking sensors on my old car and can provide you with more information that the parking sensors could.

@Zilla91 How about you drive the car and let us know what you think?


*I fully acknowledge the period that they sold cars without the software in place was just dire, I’m not excusing that. The first version was also a bit rubbish. We’re now on what version 3 or 4 (the wiggly line version got a few updates before the clouds came) and it’s no longer a reason not to buy the car. Even the last iteration of the wiggly lines was fine.

 

[Zilla91]

where's the personal insult? Maybe re-read my post.

The bit I quoted you on.

Personally I found your reply to me pretty insulting. I have no need to justify my purchase to you or to anyone else. I was simply trying to post a reply which might have been helpful to anyone who hasn't experienced the new Highland and has been influenced by the negative comments from folk like you.

All you are doing by continuing the long running negative narrative is simply being unhelpful. The whole purpose of forums like this is to let us share our experiences which in my case is reality whereas yours is simply theoretical.

Time to draw a line under this @Zilla91?

Do you actually think anyone is not going to buy a car on the basis of something I posted on an internet forum? I mean I'll take that as a compliment but I can assure you I do not have as much influence as you think I do.

If there are no counter arguments then what's the point of a forum? Debate and disagreement isn't a bad thing. As for not being allowed to have an opinion because I've not test driven one - it's a pretty poor argument, I don't need to test one out to know that it won't work for me (that's the key word in there BTW).

Life would be pretty limited if the only opinions you are allowed to hold are for those things personally experienced. I guess I wouldn't be allowed to think Russia is bad for invading Ukraine because I'm neither Ukrainian or live in Ukraine. You could apply the same flawed logic with something like Hamas + Isreal.

Happy to draw a line with you but it won't stop me from having an opinion.

*I fully acknowledge the period that they sold cars without the software in place was just dire, I’m not excusing that.

But you're doing just that. I just hope you didn't pay extra for EAP or FSD for all those extra features that aren't available on your vision only car

 

[GeorgeSymonds]

Mod hat:

lets not get personal, I think making increasingly wild statements on all sides that to me stretches the boundaries of credibility don't really help anybodies argument and I personally won't be pursuaded by anybody that hasn't developed a level of respect and credibility.

Mod hat off:

There are two potential issues for Tesla here

- Is it actually ok? We've had differing opinions from those that have used it, some suggesting fairly bad driving practices to make it work, others who don;t drive UK roads, and some who actually live here. Let's say its 99% ok, I stuggle to see how needing to indicate in a hurry when the steering is turned more than 90 degrees and in proper control of the car is every going to be trivial to do, musle memory or not, But 99% is pretty high and is intended to clear the way for the second point

- Do people "think" its going to be ok. Clearly there is a large group of people who are in that camp, rightly or wrongly, and that all presents Tesla with a lost sales opportuinity..

The second point is bad for Tesla regardless of whether the issue is real.

I will use my own experiences in life and observations when I or my wife have been driving and where the steering wheel is when I or she naturally indicates. On those observations it doesn;t work all the time. I can say this a million times and I will be told I need to try it, and thats true, but I know I will have to adjust the way I drive to try and make them work, I may or may not be successful, but either way its something I neither asked for, want to do or have to accomodate when I drive 2 cars, at least one of which will continue to have indicators, and I don;t feel I should have to have two different muscle memory or whatever approachs to indicating competing.

 

[spdpsba]

Debate and disagreement isn't a bad thing. As for not being allowed to have an opinion because I've not test driven one - it's a pretty poor argument, I don't need to test one out to know that it won't work for me (that's the key word in there BTW).

Life would be pretty limited if the only opinions you are allowed to hold are for those things personally experienced. I guess I wouldn't be allowed to think Russia is bad for invading Ukraine because I'm neither Ukrainian or live in Ukraine. You could apply the same flawed logic with something like Hamas + Isreal.

I remembered these lines from the film ‘A few good men’ when I read yours @Zilla91

Kaffee(Tom Cruise): “Do you disagree?”

Jessup (Jack Nicholson) “Certainly not in principle. I disagree only inasmuch as I disagree that a paraplegic is entitled to foxtrot. It’d be nice, it just ain’t possible.”

 

[Bouba]

View attachment 1015471

On my boat forum, the dinosaurs won’t have anything to do with electric cars…it’s a bit funny that Tesla owners can be dinosaurs as well

 

[Roger20]

Mod hat:

lets not get personal, I think making increasingly wild statements on all sides that to me stretches the boundaries of credibility don't really help anybodies argument and I personally won't be pursuaded by anybody that hasn't developed a level of respect and credibility.

Mod hat off:

There are two potential issues for Tesla here

- Is it actually ok? We've had differing opinions from those that have used it, some suggesting fairly bad driving practices to make it work, others who don;t drive UK roads, and some who actually live here. Let's say its 99% ok, I stuggle to see how needing to indicate in a hurry when the steering is turned more than 90 degrees and in proper control of the car is every going to be trivial to do, musle memory or not, But 99% is pretty high and is intended to clear the way for the second point

- Do people "think" its going to be ok. Clearly there is a large group of people who are in that camp, rightly or wrongly, and that all presents Tesla with a lost sales opportuinity..

The second point is bad for Tesla regardless of whether the issue is real.

I will use my own experiences in life and observations when I or my wife have been driving and where the steering wheel is when I or she naturally indicates. On those observations it doesn;t work all the time. I can say this a million times and I will be told I need to try it, and thats true, but I know I will have to adjust the way I drive to try and make them work, I may or may not be successful, but either way its something I neither asked for, want to do or have to accomodate when I drive 2 cars, at least one of which will continue to have indicators, and I don;t feel I should have to have two different muscle memory or whatever approachs to indicating competing.

Your points are well made and you are right about the 99% aspect. But arguably that 1% situation could equally apply to incorrect or lack of signalling with stalks. There will always be potentially dangerous indication or lack of it in certain roundabout situations whichever system is used.

With regard to having to have two different muscle memories I'm not sure again that this is really a problem in reality. We still have a second car with stalks and I don't suddenly forget which car I'm in. Whether my wife will adapt to occasional stalkless use is another matter altogether!

I've been riding motorbikes for over fifty years and currently ride a modern bike with gear change on the left and a classic bike with it on the right. I just adopt and adapt to whatever I'm riding.

 

[Durzel]

Thanks. It does work for me, and works well. And for the record i live in an area with loads of roundabouts, and its not been an issue for me since day 1. You have to adapt slightly to how to hold the wheel. Its not a big deal. I actually prefer the non-stalk steering wheel now having driven it over a week. Stalks are pointless and serve no purpose, just clutter.

I have driven one, and whilst I didn't find them quite as bad as I was expecting, they would take some time to get used to, and I think I would always be less confident about quick readjustments in unfamiliar places. I went for a drive around Bristol on a collection of mini and larger roundabouts with multiple lanes, and I found myself having to look down at the wheel briefly to reconfirm what I was doing. I can accept that this probably gets a bit easier over time, but it's still a discipline that would need to be learnt purely for this car. I drive other cars frequently so would have to try and commit to muscle memory two different ways of indicating.

Regards your last sentence - that is just ridiculous on its face. if Tesla hadn't removed the stalks there's no way you would be saying "gee I wish a manufacturer would finally get rid of these pesky stalks". They were only an anachronism in your head when Tesla told you they were, and it's debatable whether they did because of "progress" or "reduced BOM costs".

Having said all of the above - the indicators aren't unuseable. In my limited test drive they were only really an issue on mini roundabouts, the rest of the time they were "ok". I still think they were an unneeded change - I defy anyone to honestly say, hand on heart, that they've been irritated by the "clutter" of stalks all these years. I also still think they would be better if it was the left indicator on the left hand side of the wheel, and the right on the right. On a more positive note I liked the smaller, more high quality feeling steering wheel.

 

[qwickshot]

But you're doing just that.

How am I doing that? All I said was the software implementation as is available today is actually fine.

I specifically called Tesla out for that gap as it was unacceptable.

The reality is that the previous lack of said software implementation for 6-8 months is irrelevant to people buying a Model 3 Highland today because the said software has been implemented.

I just hope you didn't pay extra for EAP or FSD for all those extra features that aren't available on your vision only car

That’s off topic slightly but I wouldn’t buy it even if it was available and I didn’t on my model 3 either.

Auto lane change, summon and auto park is not worth £2k or whatever they charge for EAP these days. I don’t even subscribe to premium connectivity, I’d rather keep the £10.

My car is leased. Putting on cosmetic upgrades like wheels and software/minor feature options like auto parking IS never worth it on a lease as they don’t contribute to the residual value. As such you have to pay almost the entire cost of that extra over the period of the lease.

That’s pretty normal when you lease anything, not just a Tesla.

The only thing extra on the car is paint but it’s an unavoidable cost if you don’t want white. At least it helps me work out which car is mine from a distance amongst the sea of white Model Y’s

 

[KennethS]

I also still think they would be better if it was the left indicator on the left hand side of the wheel, and the right on the right.

100% agree with this. It's as if the Tesla designers thought when locating the buttons that the indicator stalk was on the left side so the buttons should be as well. Still I think I would get used to it pretty quickly. My spouse on the other hand is not as receptive to change.

 

[Durzel]

100% agree with this. It's as if the Tesla designers thought when locating the buttons that the indicator stalk was on the left side so the buttons should be as well. Still I think I would get used to it pretty quickly. My spouse on the other hand is not as receptive to change.

I'm probably guilty of imagining the worse case scenarios as being bigger than they really are in practice. I remember when Apple removed the headphone jack from iPhones I thought it was a dumb idea, and railed against it, but then I also couldn't remember the last time I had ever plugged in a set of headphones into my phone.

I don't think Tesla's implementation of these indicator buttons is right, but it also isn't as big of a deal as I thought it would be. In some cases it actually felt better as I wasn't taking my hand off the wheel at all.

The indicators could easily be mini paddles on the back of the wheel, or left on left, right on right in easy reach of thumbs. I think it will get revised along those lines in the future (they changed from touch buttons to haptics from the S/X to Highland, so they are evolving).

 

[spdpsba]

The indicators could easily be mini paddles on the back of the wheel,

Nah, Elon never approves the traditional approach! Stalks are going to be optional with £1100 as a set.

 

[doats1]

I've been reluctant to weigh in on this conversation because I haven't actually driven a Highland Model 3. I don't intend to though, primarily because I have no desire to buy a new car anytime soon.

But also because I too think it's a poor choice to remove the stalks. I don't think it will cause an accident or that I wouldn't get used to it; I'm sure I would and be fine. But to me, it's pointless. From an admittedly uninformed POV there is no benefit to the driver in removing the stalks. It doesn't appear to improve the driving experience, which is what I would expect from a change of this type.

I liken my thoughts on this to the lack of instrument cluster in the Model 3. It's actually not a big issue that it's not there. But every time I get into another car with one, I just think to myself 'man, I wish I had one of these'.

It'll probably iterate and improve over time.

 

[GeorgeSymonds]

Your points are well made and you are right about the 99% aspect. But arguably that 1% situation could equally apply to incorrect or lack of signalling with stalks. There will always be potentially dangerous indication or lack of it in certain roundabout situations whichever system is used.

With regard to having to have two different muscle memories I'm not sure again that this is really a problem in reality. We still have a second car with stalks and I don't suddenly forget which car I'm in. Whether my wife will adapt to occasional stalkless use is another matter altogether!

I've been riding motorbikes for over fifty years and currently ride a modern bike with gear change on the left and a classic bike with it on the right. I just adopt and adapt to whatever I'm riding.

Having occassionbally turned the wipers on in our BMW when trying to select Drive as if in our Tesla, I can assure you it happens. The saving grace is thats not at a critical moment where sending the wrong or no message/signal is potentially dangerous

 

[Dilly]

I've been reluctant to weigh in on this conversation because I haven't actually driven a Highland Model 3. I don't intend to though, primarily because I have no desire to buy a new car anytime soon.

But also because I too think it's a poor choice to remove the stalks. I don't think it will cause an accident or that I wouldn't get used to it; I'm sure I would and be fine. But to me, it's pointless. From an admittedly uninformed POV there is no benefit to the driver in removing the stalks. It doesn't appear to improve the driving experience, which is what I would expect from a change of this type.

I liken my thoughts on this to the lack of instrument cluster in the Model 3. It's actually not a big issue that it's not there. But every time I get into another car with one, I just think to myself 'man, I wish I had one of these'.

It'll probably iterate and improve over time.

I agree. I’m in the same position. I can’t help wondering how the lack of stalks was viewed by the Department of Transport or whatever the current body is. In a sense, it’s not entirely dissimilar to stalks being on opposite sides in older cars. It took a while to remember the transition when changing cars.

From an earlier comment, left button on the left and right button on the right, to me seems sensible and perhaps more intuitive. On the the other hand, when I had my Ioniq with a mass of buttons on both sides the wheel, hitting the right one wasn’t that intuitive.

If I ever drive one, I’ll do so with an open mind. For now, incomplete Teslavision is the stumbling block for me.

 

[FastLaneJB]

As I've mentioned before. If Tesla kept the stalks, they'd not have limited their market of customers. Now there's some people, percentage unknown that might have brought a Model 3 that won't. I think that percentage will be higher than the people that are now attracted to the Model 3 because in many other ways it's improved nicely.

Still curious when the APR will drop down to similar levels as the Model Y is currently. That'll tell you when early demand has dried out and they need to tempt people into the car to shift enough. Thinking might be as easy as end of Q2 but otherwise pretty much must happen when Model Y Juniper comes out.

 

[Bouba]

As I've mentioned before. If Tesla kept the stalks, they'd not have limited their market of customers. Now there's some people, percentage unknown that might have brought a Model 3 that won't. I think that percentage will be higher than the people that are now attracted to the Model 3 because in many other ways it's improved nicely.

Still curious when the APR will drop down to similar levels as the Model Y is currently. That'll tell you when early demand has dried out and they need to tempt people into the car to shift enough. Thinking might be as easy as end of Q2 but otherwise pretty much must happen when Model Y Juniper comes out.

It’s Elon’s and Tesla’s ethos that there will be as minimal driver input as possible...personally I think that’s a pretty good trajectory...

 

[doats1]

It’s Elon’s and Tesla’s ethos that there will be as minimal driver input as possible...personally I think that’s a pretty good trajectory...

Unless you mean people are more put off by using the indicator buttons, the removal of stalks has not minimised driver input.

 

[FastLaneJB]

It’s Elon’s and Tesla’s ethos that there will be as minimal driver input as possible...personally I think that’s a pretty good trajectory...

I'm aware but that's a long way off. It's the same approach as removing the parking sensors before they had any future solution for it. For a period of time there was nothing, then the so-so squiggly lines and finally the high fidelity parking.

They've removed the stalks but it's going to be a long time before the car can do all of this for you.

Let's be honest though. They didn't do it for their utopia selfest driving future. They did it to save cost in the present. In some ways I'm fine with minimisim where it makes sense to achieve this. If they can keep price down despite inflation that's good.

I'll try to get a test drive to judge it but regardless I'm sure they'll have lost some sales because of this.

 

[Tigermad]

Can you get high fidelity parking to beep or do you not get beeps?